think they are ablative or whatever, they essentially get used up during re-entry (perhaps they can do more than one but they're like tires on your car, they get used up over time)
My grandfather was one of the engineers that developed those tiles , ( originally for the space shuttle ) in the 60s , Apollo program , working for Skylab/McDonnell Douglas
uneducated guy here, with a guess on why thats not gonna work: Ceramic material can be formed, but in order to make it solid you have to burn it at a high temperature. This would expose the starship to the very temperatures that these tiles are meant to protect it from.
@@bedecktInteresting. How about doing 3 large sections of tiles so it's easier to install and it can be secured more permanently and harder to fall off.
@@starshipcaptain4753The big issue with all of this is that the tile material doesn't thermally expand at the same rate as the steel structure. This would be a huge problem with a single rigid tile, leading to it cracking as the metal behind it shrinks and expands during fueling and re-entry.
@@starshipcaptain4753besides the heat expansion coefficient problem that roger mentioned, you just can’t make ceramic anything that big. The yield strength of ceramics is stochastic, that is to say it’s random. The critical load before failure is set by the largest crack size inside the material, and cracks form randomly during manufacturing. The larger the piece, the more likely it has a critically large crack. Make it in small tiles, however, and you can simply discard the few tiles that have such a crack and you’re good to go
@@__-fi6xg Im sorry, what? Elon Musk is trying to send a million people to colonize Mars by when.. the mid 2030's? The work environment there is known to be intense, fast-pace, and high pressure. They work long hours and have to meet demanding deadlines. There is no room to be "lazy" if you're working at SpaceX. Pure arrogance, lmao
I met a guy that used to install those tiles for nasa. I think it was more of a thin layer that went over the tile that he did. He was super cool. He had a 1 hole private golf hole on 50 acres.
One thing commenters seem to miss, is just how very much force is applied to those tiles by the acoustic noise of the Raptor rocket engines. They create chaotic hypersonic shock waves, exceeding 1 Bar *_over-pressure,_* followed by near vacuum. There is a full 1.0 Bar of pressure (14.7 PSI) on the back of each snap-on tile, stored in the hollow tile pockets and in the fluffy thermal blanket. [That air is compressed if the tile moves inwards rapidly enough.] Each of the stand-off pins has a snap-on feature that may allow some "over-travel". When each tile is being accelerated outward by the [vacuum trailing behind] sound pressure, *_what must happen when the over-travel ends and brittle tile hits the hard stop on the fastener?_*
I was under the impression harmonics are one of the tipping points that need tackling. Resins and glues can dampen momentum when the temperature is within manageable windows. What are the optimum dampening temperatures is what I wonder. And, what about tradeoffs of utilizing pockets of integrated blends at high resolution?
Wow you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about spacex fanboy. But yeah a 2 bar pressure difference is brutal, oh btw a normal bicycle tyre has about 4.5 bars of overpressure. Professional racing bicycle tyres can hold over 15 bars of overpressure.
@@MikouYoussef They did not ! Reentry does not last long : 5 6 minutes. Then cooling once slowed down. So just a survivable temperature rise for the crew.
@@UpperDarbyDetailingNo reason to assume it to be different with Starship. Reusing a booster is a very different topic, and it still takes at least a month of maintenance.
@@karstenschuhmann8334 there’s literally every reason to assume it would be different. Literally everything about the design is different, not to mention three decades newer technology. I don’t doubt that individual ‘ships will have a decently long turn around time, but even if it takes a month that is significantly faster than the shuttle.
@@UpperDarbyDetailing Reusing the heat shild and mixing freight with passengers was the reason for the cost of the space shuttle. The booster has lots of engines and does not go very high. This makes a reuse of the booster sensible. The heat shild costs Starship a large fraction of its payload, even more if we account for the needed residual fuel.
I'd imagine the tiles are very similar to space shuttle tiles. My departed great uncle worked for Lockheed Martin and was a chemist. He helped develop the glue that held the space shuttles tiles on. At the time it was the best solution they could come up with. There were some issues at first, but training helped the technicians install the tiles correctly.
I saw a video from a guy with a backyard Scanning Electron Microscope, who got a hold of multiple tiles, and he said that there were minor differences from the later Shuttle tiles and the Starship tiles, with bigger differences between early and late Shuttle tiles. Biggest difference is going to be the mounting system. Shuttle used a glue type system, Starship is currently using a mounting stud situation. We'll see which is better, but I don't think it's a "3 more months and it'll be magically fixed!" kind of a problem. It was a decades long struggle to claw out marginal improvement on Shuttle, Starship isn't going to have a massively easier time.
@@phillyphakename1255 Biggest difference is that the shuttle had hundreds if not thousands of different tile shapes, and that's also why they were numbered, so its location would be easier to find, and eventually replaced if needed. This was one of the biggest problems of the shuttle, and also one of the main reasons why it had such a giant maintenance time between flights.
@@nunosanto7365 the number of tiles and the shape weren't the problem, it was the mounting system. Like I said, we'll see if the SpaceX stud based system works. It didn't seem to work so well yesterday, but we'll see how will it works in a decade.
@@phillyphakename1255 And btw, I never talked about number of tiles, that was never a problem. The problem was indeed the shape. Hundreds of different shapes. Each piece had to be numbered otherwise if it needed replacement it would be almost impossible to find it. Only this last phrase should be self explaining for one of the biggest "failures" of the shuttle.
About 4 minths ago, someone in the comment section had pondered if going with smaller tiles might be a better solution. At first, the idea seemed to have shortcomings such as more points of resin exposure to high heat (more points of failure). However, I might be wrong in limiting the geometrical possibilities. Possibly overlooked is a floating dragon skin or thatched grass roof concept with self healing temporary tendons when stronger primary stitched tendons fail. Just like brittle items get harder to break as they get smaller, the tiles may be more resilient if introduced to a sewing/stitching method. Pinpoint locations such as leading edges, grabbing points, and other heat transfer candidates may be preferable with Stoke style cooling.
From my understanding this would essentially be like when you shatter tiles and glue them on to a plastic mesh for like art decorations? But way more complex?
Mildly disappointed that SpaceX hasn't tried to using "texagon" shaped tiles on their launches out of their Texas facility yet. (As in those interlocking Texas-shaped bricks that many towns and cities in Texas like to pave their downtown walkways with.)
@@Whataboutit "we're" is an English contraction (combination of two words) that means "we are", i.e. - a group of individuals. Hope this helps! Stay tuned for more SpaceX updates !
@VHGbham douchebag, could've given a civil and professional reply, but what can you expect, I'd bet the work culture is purposefully horrible in all of Elon's companies
WD-40 was created to act as a rust protection on the original Atlas missiles. It was also good for a ton of other issues. I'm hoping there's some company out there producing bed-liner spray trying their best to make it have ceramic coating qualities. Just spray it on, torch it a bit, spray some more on, torch it. And voila you got protection enough.
Not at all. Look up wiki. It was to avoid water icing during the fueling of the missiles. More ice more weight less range. So they "water down" with wd (water displacement) before launching minutemen missiles..
Ceramic coating alone is not enough, Its not like a car exhaust. On re-entry the plasma ship creates is like 7-8X Hotter than Glowing red hot car exhaust, No Ceramic coatings are rated for 3,000*C with spikes in temps over 5,500*C
IIRC ceramic coating directly on the booster wall is a no-go due to differences in thermal expansion of steel and ceramics. The gaps between the tiles are actually an important feature that avoids this issue.
The fact that so little progress has been made in aerospace design since the 1970s is incredibly depressing. I sincerely hope Blue Origin can drum up some friendly, throat cutting innovation so we can make up for some lost time.
this system lost two shuttles !not the smartest thing to use !but keeping the rockets are what the CEos want but once into spece the payload is switched to flying saucers .
@@Airroll777challenger was lost due to cold temperature outside of the design specifications of the solid rocket boosters specifications. It was Colombia that was lost due to damage to the heat shield due to damage from foam from the external fuel tank. They were lost due to different reasons
@liamschertler9806 A single tile loss is a danger for the whole of Starship. So it can be only considered safe, if there is only one tile lost after hundreds of flights.
@@Airroll777 Challenger’s accident was not at all related to the Shuttle’s TPS… Columbia was lost because of the foam insulation of the external booster, not necessarily the orbiter’s TPS
The heat tiles are the best example of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” They work, they do what they’re supposed to and yes they have drawbacks but as far as this project goes, those are currently the best solution we have for that specific problem.
Ok Felix, you asked, imagine a full sized wrap for half of that Space ship , lifting it into place without damaging it and fitting it around every non conforming section of the Craft. Just how delicate would that be in the breezes around the Spaceport ? Or imagine fitting it on a laid down Spaceship, how would you raise and Lower such a vessel if you didn’t want to damage the surface … I think that the small tiles with a few standard Sizes are superior to the Space Shuttle unique Tile Regime especially if you are looking at rapid reusability …
The original requirement for the shuttle was for a thermal protection system that would last for 100 flights. The silica tiles were the only thing, at least at the time, that could meet the 100-flight specification. The bulk of the tile damage issues with the Space Shuttle were from impacts from pieces of foam shed from the ET.
AT LEAST IN YOUR COMMENTS YOU SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED A NASA SPACE SHUTTLE THAT GOT DESTROYED ON RE-ENTRY DUE TO MISSING TILE ISSUES WHEN LAUNCHING UP. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
The issue there was that there was an impact on the leading edge of the wing by a piece of foam that broke off from the tank some meters up, but in that area of the wing there were no tiles. See wikipedia "reinforced carbon-carbon".
I assume they interlock and have a hook /lock to the steel, in addition to the glue? The highest temp glue or resin I could find fails at around 600F. Cement, with inert minerals, goes higher, which is in muffler cement. I recall stainless steel is probably good up to 22 F. Now, if they didn't want to put tiny hooks on the steel, they could wrap cylinder in high temp thin bands that could slip into a groove in the tile with the groove having a pocket to grab onto the rope like band, to supplement the adhesive and any interlocking system. This would make tiles falling off unlikely on the bulk of the cylinder. Towards the nose, this system would not work. So a special web might be constructed, shaped to the nose and secured at points to aft of the nose tip. Again each tile would have groves to grab the rope like bar grid to bolster their glue and interlock. This would offer triple redundancy. Whatever they do now hasn't improved since the 80s and has lead to tiles falling off and the loss of people and ships. They probably need more redundancy in the fastening and inspection and maintenance schedule.
There is another company working off an active cooling system, Stoke Space with their Nova rocket. It uses the engine as a reentry shield based on an old concept by engineer Philip Bono; the coolant that keeps the rocket regulated on ascent is used to keep it cold on descent. Instead of a single or several engine bells it uses dozens of plug nozzles arranged around the bottom of the ship which forms an aerospike when making a burn.
Having worked on the insurance claim for the Shuttle can tell you that tiles are cheaper to replace but not good. A solid encompassing coating would be far superior. Missing tiles led to the last Shuttle disaster on re-entry.
@@user-RCST Steel melts 2,500-2,800 degrees Fahrenheit - breaking into Earth’s atmosphere craft needs to withstand temps up to 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit
It's still the same issue. Just being a newer version don't fix it. Dude said in the video they still fall off. Even if what he said about fixing that is true they will still be vulnerable to the same failure that took down challenger. Foreign objects and debris are very damaging to anything aerospace.
I remember early in Starship's life, when it was still called BFR, the plan seemed to be using the steel itself as a heat shield with some kind of interior cooling mechanism. I thought that was a big reason for making it out of steel in the first place. Seems like putting heat shield tiles on the exterior somewhat ruins that original vision. I guess the acoustic pressure would make interior cooling impractical.
Ya Elon says a lot of things. This was going to have an actively cooled skin using the methane fuel as coolant. Completely threw that idea out the window once an engineering had a look at it.
@@criticalevent That's the price of rapid innovation and iteration, I suppose. Some ideas are good, some are bad, but all are worth considering. Landing a rocket on a barge for re-use was considered crazy once too. Catching a rocket back on the launch tower was even crazier.
To answer the question it’s made up of these tiles so that it’s easier to replace the worn out ones that have succumbed to deformation, therefore making it more economical and helps with things like reusability
We all know that stainless steel gets really hot in sunlight. It is probably the worst possible material for the outer shell if a spaceship. Appollo used white painted aluminum and the ISS uses textile.
For me it being easily breakable is actually a good thing because it forces the workers and the scientist to actually try to notice flaws and perfect and have them cut no cost and possibly cause accidents
That's a good question seeing how when we started the space program we reengineered the atmosphere so objects reentering no longer burn up. We need to look into why people need to use oxygen underwater.
The shuttle used to have a similar issue with losing some of its tiles and needing to be replaced with new ones. This was also one of the reasons the shuttle flew no more - it needed a lot of extra time refurbishing to put it back in action. I hope Starship won't suffer the same fate.
Starship doesn’t have to worry about refurbishment when they can’t figure out how to get the thing to survive liftoff. I’m sure finding a better alternative to those tiles is about as close to the bottom of their punch list as it gets.
@kpro8908 Well, their last launch was impressive, considering what NASA has been doing in the past few years. But still, I am a bit disappointed that the Starship ended up needing tiles as well. When they announced it, it was planned that the steel was going to be enough. But it obviously isn't...
Suggestion: Interlocking tiles using tabs on each side of the hexagon. Tabs on every other side to slide under the tab of adjacent tiles. This system could possibly both accommodate thermal expansion and allow retention of a tile whose attachment had failed.
I remember watching the space shuttle blow up live , an it was from a faulty heat tile, watching those people wave good bye an getting on the shuttle I will never forget because minutes later i watched those same people die.....I was 9 yrs old
It's passive but it's sacrificial. I really feel like there's got to be some type of radiation, exchanger, probably pump driven, that could be worked out....
The tiles are backed up by ablative material in case a few tiles are lost. This was just tested in IFT-5. From what I've been able to gather from various sources, the "sparks" that are seen during the reentry are mostly that ablative material burning off from spots where tiles were intentionally omitted, specifically to test this issue.
"biggest disadvantage is how easily they break (and fall off)" ... "as long as they are securely attached, they are unlikely to fail" I think we see an issue
I think this is the best current method. I also think they have been in use for a long time. Their shape also makes them look optimal for many different shapes. But the issue is that they can fall off. The statement about the static fire says that thousands fall off. I didn't know the starship was comprised of Stainless steel, so that's an interest8ng fact. Is it possible to attach larger sections of what those tiles are made from, to those large sections of stainless before those large sections are connected? The area between the sections where the stainless attaches to another stainless section can be the shape that allows the use of the small tiles.
I have to laugh at some people who tease people about adopting technology created during the Space Shuttle development program. But my answer would be first principles thinking. Just because a solution was discovered years ago, why is it not still effective today? After all, gravity hasn't changed, and thermal management hasn't changed. And combustion vibration hasn't changed. I think one of the keys of the current system is simplicity of application re: reusability. 😂❤
I remember comments on Relativity 3D printed version, People were claming that layers roughness would would have heavy impact the aerodynamics, while the owner explained it does not have significant impact, close to none... People love to act smartass...
The heat-bearing external material has to be able to expand and contract as well, the tiling allows for portions of the tiles to do so without warping an entire fuselage, allowing for localized replacement - which keeps overall costs significantly lower
They use them because they are efficient for whatever SpaceX needs them for. Whenever they become obsolete for whatever purpose they serve, they will be upgraded for what is needed.
I remember that instead of those tiles, they wanted to punch “sweat” holes on the stainless steal starship surface and let the fuel (or oxidizer perhaps) to bleed to absorb the heat. Seems like that didn’t happen. Regardless, they definitely need an alternative heat shield in order to make the journey much safer and turn it into commercial passenger vehicle.
Tiles are probably the best option. You can replace the ones that break off. Installation ia easier. You don’t have to reinstall everything again, can just reinstall a certain portion
Unlike other spaceships, starships will be running dozens of missions regularly. So it makes more economic sense to have a heat shield that can be easily replaced.
Yup, same silica tiles that the space shuttle used. We still haven't found a glue for tiles that can withstand repeated heat exposure. Eventually, the tiles have to be replaced. It's like changing tires on a car.😊
Seems like they’re going for the coat of plates approach. Instead of one big piece of armor, attach a lot of smaller ones that work in unison so you can repair it way easier
What I love about Elon is he’s Henry Fording every industry he hits. Economies of scale. Something might perform better, but this performs near perfect, scales easier (scales heh heh), tests easier. And yea it’s not “him” but it is in some sense because that’s where he’s attacking these industries. Mining, electric transit, space.
Easily replaceable ablative cooling tiles are legitimately an exceptional mechanism, so there's not really any need to change the idea, just to improve the implementation.
Safer and easy to fix quickly…a “heat-skin” is not only difficult to fix but can catastrophically fail like a chocolate egg due to external and internal forces causing traveling cracks. Tiles are effectively pre-cracked so the blanket of tiles bends with the body.
The Russians successfully used blankets made of the same material, and laminated in place successfully on their shuttle. They said using individual tiles seemed crazy, and offered the tech to us. I never understood why we went back to tiles???? A blanket seems a no brainer?
Dear Elon or to whom it may concern. I have an idea about the heat shields. Look at a heat shield. Let's call the flat top 12 o'clock. Now, rotate it 90° left or right rotation doesn't matter. Looking at the sheild on end. 25% of the way down and 25% of the way up drill or cast in tunnels about 3mm all the way through to the other side. Take a fine braided tungsten wire cable with fiberglass insolation and thread it through the sheild to the next and so on through all the heat shields. The top of one shield will be lashed through the bottom of the one next to it, and so on. At one end of the wire, there should be a simple spring tensioner that will be covered by a bonded on shield. At the other end another adjustable spring tensioner. Also ultimately covered by a bonded on heat shield. Lashing down the heat shields together with a beed of silicone for shock/vibration should keep them put. The correct tension can be calculated to keep the shields from falling off due to heat and or pressure. Good luck, Elon, with the next launch, and thank you for what you're doing to better mankind..
Remember folks, this is a ground up space shuttle. SpaceX did exceptionally well with designing this but it will have problems that need to be ironed out
I’m calling it right now, those tiles will the number one issue holding starship back for years to come. There’s a reason it’s what brought the space shuttle program to its knees. I don’t care if it’s much simpler it’s still going to have the same inherit problems
Larger tile segments . It would take some new engineering and tooling but I think the tiles would be much for affective with much larger sections of formed tiles . Imagine a large 30x30 formed piece . Thermal expansion still an issue but would have way less crevices for hot gas’s to get through and no way to lose single tiles .
I suggest that they use a powder coat tile system that would be easy to apply easy to bake and withstand a lot more temperatures without tiles falling off it would be a permanent shell
"Why don't they install tiles that captures the heat energy from the rocket and then use that to power things inside the rocket itself? We have to save the planet!" - Some DEI employee probably.
The goal is to do a belly flop type reentry, and they use arm and leg flaps to create more or less drag on the top, bottom, left, or right to be able to steer.
@@Terra_Egg they have four fins. Picture a dude belly flopping, with 4 appendages, and controlling roll pitch yaw by moving the appendages closer or further to perpendicular to the travel axis. If the legs are out, producing drag but not the arms, you go more head first. If only the left leg and arm, you roll right. If right arm and left leg, you yaw.
Obviously, since they're good with "retro-rockets" (here meaning the re-entry landing rockets), perhaps there could be a retro-rocket, counter orbit thrust burn, stopping the orbit. After that, little or no heat of reentry (according to Rutan's heat sensing crayons) , and descend at lower velocities, like the Virgin Galactic ship.
also makes them easy to replace after they undergo thermal deformations
Tell that to the Columbia crew. Oh wait they burnt up on reentry
@@Coastal_Cruzerchill
think they are ablative or whatever, they essentially get used up during re-entry (perhaps they can do more than one but they're like tires on your car, they get used up over time)
😊@@famlrnamemssng
This youtuber is a moron thinks he is smarter tha. Elon or space x engineers 😂😂😂
My grandfather was one of the engineers that developed those tiles , ( originally for the space shuttle ) in the 60s , Apollo program , working for Skylab/McDonnell Douglas
Fantastic!!! And it’s still the same composition since the shuttle. The one material that fits the description. Silica foam. 🔥
@@Whataboutit if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
And spacex is just reinventing the wheel. Elon scamming taxpayers again.
@@SomeOrdinaryJanitor🗿
Amazing, now you can use your knowledge of your great DNA and become another master innovator
Sorry, but it needs to be more pointy. Pointy is scary
Aladeen 😂
When the billionaire becomes a dictator:
I will tell you my name, American. But be warned. It is long scary and Arabic.
Aerodynamics: 😐
@@terrora69 you must be fun at parties
"As long as it's properly attached" I think that part is more significant than it seems, as we already know the outcome from a certain space shuttle.
I always thought they could dip the half in a tile goo and let harden like a chocolate covered ice cream bar
uneducated guy here, with a guess on why thats not gonna work:
Ceramic material can be formed, but in order to make it solid you have to burn it at a high temperature. This would expose the starship to the very temperatures that these tiles are meant to protect it from.
@@bedecktInteresting. How about doing 3 large sections of tiles so it's easier to install and it can be secured more permanently and harder to fall off.
@starshipcaptain4753 would be more expensive bc if a bit of the tile deforms they'd have to replace the whole thing instead of like 1 or 2 tiles
@@starshipcaptain4753The big issue with all of this is that the tile material doesn't thermally expand at the same rate as the steel structure. This would be a huge problem with a single rigid tile, leading to it cracking as the metal behind it shrinks and expands during fueling and re-entry.
@@starshipcaptain4753besides the heat expansion coefficient problem that roger mentioned, you just can’t make ceramic anything that big. The yield strength of ceramics is stochastic, that is to say it’s random. The critical load before failure is set by the largest crack size inside the material, and cracks form randomly during manufacturing. The larger the piece, the more likely it has a critically large crack. Make it in small tiles, however, and you can simply discard the few tiles that have such a crack and you’re good to go
“These aren’t ideal”
“This is as good as it gets” 😂
Ikr. The arrogance.
its not the greatest but its the best they got
they could have made something much better but the engineers were all lazy so ...yeah
@@__-fi6xgthats some crazy statement to make ngl
@@__-fi6xg Im sorry, what? Elon Musk is trying to send a million people to colonize Mars by when.. the mid 2030's? The work environment there is known to be intense, fast-pace, and high pressure. They work long hours and have to meet demanding deadlines. There is no room to be "lazy" if you're working at SpaceX. Pure arrogance, lmao
I met a guy that used to install those tiles for nasa. I think it was more of a thin layer that went over the tile that he did. He was super cool. He had a 1 hole private golf hole on 50 acres.
Why didn't he put two holes on the golf course, one on each end? 😂
@@The_Quaalude He likes the exercise.
All that government tax money 😂
@@michwashington no his own money
I'm so gonna do this one day to end awkward silences with... "wanna see my hole?"
After the Titan sub i really would love elon to transition from spacex to oceanx
😂 Ocean X. Sounds like Elon alright.
One thing commenters seem to miss, is just how very much force is applied to those tiles by the acoustic noise of the Raptor rocket engines. They create chaotic hypersonic shock waves, exceeding 1 Bar *_over-pressure,_* followed by near vacuum.
There is a full 1.0 Bar of pressure (14.7 PSI) on the back of each snap-on tile, stored in the hollow tile pockets and in the fluffy thermal blanket. [That air is compressed if the tile moves inwards rapidly enough.]
Each of the stand-off pins has a snap-on feature that may allow some "over-travel". When each tile is being accelerated outward by the [vacuum trailing behind] sound pressure, *_what must happen when the over-travel ends and brittle tile hits the hard stop on the fastener?_*
I was under the impression harmonics are one of the tipping points that need tackling.
Resins and glues can dampen momentum when the temperature is within manageable windows.
What are the optimum dampening temperatures is what I wonder. And, what about tradeoffs of utilizing pockets of integrated blends at high resolution?
Columbia 2
Wow you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about spacex fanboy. But yeah a 2 bar pressure difference is brutal, oh btw a normal bicycle tyre has about 4.5 bars of overpressure. Professional racing bicycle tyres can hold over 15 bars of overpressure.
Why so rude?
@@alexanderkaiser4899
Wow, you have absolutely no idea what you are berating.
Remember when they originally planned to make starship Sweat to stay cool
Yep. Transpirational cooling! Will that idea ever come back? Stoke seems to want to use it!
Wait, like they did to cool Astronauts on Apollo 11 and 12?
@@MikouYoussef They did not !
Reentry does not last long : 5 6 minutes. Then cooling once slowed down. So just a survivable temperature rise for the crew.
@@philippe94416 then why do they need it now ?
It sounds like this is going to be the biggest maintenance item between launches much like the shuttles was.
I mean… the Space Shuttle’s heat shield was major item, but the whole shuttle basically had to be rebuilt after every launch.
@@UpperDarbyDetailingNo reason to assume it to be different with Starship.
Reusing a booster is a very different topic, and it still takes at least a month of maintenance.
@@karstenschuhmann8334 there’s literally every reason to assume it would be different. Literally everything about the design is different, not to mention three decades newer technology. I don’t doubt that individual ‘ships will have a decently long turn around time, but even if it takes a month that is significantly faster than the shuttle.
@@UpperDarbyDetailing Reusing the heat shild and mixing freight with passengers was the reason for the cost of the space shuttle.
The booster has lots of engines and does not go very high. This makes a reuse of the booster sensible.
The heat shild costs Starship a large fraction of its payload, even more if we account for the needed residual fuel.
Seems like it but I think that’s why they’re trying their best to keep it cheap and simple
I'd imagine the tiles are very similar to space shuttle tiles. My departed great uncle worked for Lockheed Martin and was a chemist. He helped develop the glue that held the space shuttles tiles on. At the time it was the best solution they could come up with. There were some issues at first, but training helped the technicians install the tiles correctly.
I saw a video from a guy with a backyard Scanning Electron Microscope, who got a hold of multiple tiles, and he said that there were minor differences from the later Shuttle tiles and the Starship tiles, with bigger differences between early and late Shuttle tiles.
Biggest difference is going to be the mounting system. Shuttle used a glue type system, Starship is currently using a mounting stud situation. We'll see which is better, but I don't think it's a "3 more months and it'll be magically fixed!" kind of a problem. It was a decades long struggle to claw out marginal improvement on Shuttle, Starship isn't going to have a massively easier time.
@@phillyphakename1255 Biggest difference is that the shuttle had hundreds if not thousands of different tile shapes, and that's also why they were numbered, so its location would be easier to find, and eventually replaced if needed. This was one of the biggest problems of the shuttle, and also one of the main reasons why it had such a giant maintenance time between flights.
@@nunosanto7365 the number of tiles and the shape weren't the problem, it was the mounting system. Like I said, we'll see if the SpaceX stud based system works. It didn't seem to work so well yesterday, but we'll see how will it works in a decade.
@@phillyphakename1255 And btw, I never talked about number of tiles, that was never a problem. The problem was indeed the shape. Hundreds of different shapes. Each piece had to be numbered otherwise if it needed replacement it would be almost impossible to find it. Only this last phrase should be self explaining for one of the biggest "failures" of the shuttle.
They are the patented space shuttle tiles.
About 4 minths ago, someone in the comment section had pondered if going with smaller tiles might be a better solution.
At first, the idea seemed to have shortcomings such as more points of resin exposure to high heat (more points of failure).
However, I might be wrong in limiting the geometrical possibilities.
Possibly overlooked is a floating dragon skin or thatched grass roof concept with self healing temporary tendons when stronger primary stitched tendons fail. Just like brittle items get harder to break as they get smaller, the tiles may be more resilient if introduced to a sewing/stitching method.
Pinpoint locations such as leading edges, grabbing points, and other heat transfer candidates may be preferable with Stoke style cooling.
You're hired
Put this guy on the team
Of course, because we have dragons to give us security that it works in nature. What exactly is this argument based on?
dragon skin? the hell are you on about
From my understanding this would essentially be like when you shatter tiles and glue them on to a plastic mesh for like art decorations? But way more complex?
"Let's make something better than these tiles!"
"Crickets"
@@lordot8665 lol give it a few years....
@@lordot8665 I don't think crickets would work tbh.
Mildly disappointed that SpaceX hasn't tried to using "texagon" shaped tiles on their launches out of their Texas facility yet.
(As in those interlocking Texas-shaped bricks that many towns and cities in Texas like to pave their downtown walkways with.)
Best comment here. Screw Hexagons, Texagons are the bestagons
YELLOGON PRESSURE TREATED PINEEGON@@Zanthron
We're working on a PM-03 polymer infused with aerogel to coat the tiles. And high temp JBWeld to attach them.
We’re? 👀
@@Whataboutit "we're" is an English contraction (combination of two words) that means "we are", i.e. - a group of individuals. Hope this helps! Stay tuned for more SpaceX updates !
@VHGbham douchebag, could've given a civil and professional reply, but what can you expect, I'd bet the work culture is purposefully horrible in all of Elon's companies
WD-40 was created to act as a rust protection on the original Atlas missiles. It was also good for a ton of other issues.
I'm hoping there's some company out there producing bed-liner spray trying their best to make it have ceramic coating qualities. Just spray it on, torch it a bit, spray some more on, torch it. And voila you got protection enough.
Not at all. Look up wiki. It was to avoid water icing during the fueling of the missiles. More ice more weight less range. So they "water down" with wd (water displacement) before launching minutemen missiles..
Ceramic coating alone is not enough,
Its not like a car exhaust.
On re-entry the plasma ship creates is like 7-8X Hotter than Glowing red hot car exhaust, No Ceramic coatings are rated for 3,000*C with spikes in temps over 5,500*C
WD means water displacement.
IIRC ceramic coating directly on the booster wall is a no-go due to differences in thermal expansion of steel and ceramics. The gaps between the tiles are actually an important feature that avoids this issue.
The fact that so little progress has been made in aerospace design since the 1970s is incredibly depressing. I sincerely hope Blue Origin can drum up some friendly, throat cutting innovation so we can make up for some lost time.
It's not so much the tile it's the glue that we need to work on
this system lost two shuttles !not the smartest thing to use !but keeping the rockets are what the CEos want but once into spece the payload is switched to flying saucers .
@@Airroll777challenger was lost due to cold temperature outside of the design specifications of the solid rocket boosters specifications. It was Colombia that was lost due to damage to the heat shield due to damage from foam from the external fuel tank. They were lost due to different reasons
@liamschertler9806 A single tile loss is a danger for the whole of Starship. So it can be only considered safe, if there is only one tile lost after hundreds of flights.
@@Airroll777 Challenger’s accident was not at all related to the Shuttle’s TPS… Columbia was lost because of the foam insulation of the external booster, not necessarily the orbiter’s TPS
And the grout to fill the gap! Beautiful bathroom finally!
The heat tiles are the best example of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
They work, they do what they’re supposed to and yes they have drawbacks but as far as this project goes, those are currently the best solution we have for that specific problem.
Ok Felix, you asked, imagine a full sized wrap for half of that Space ship , lifting it into place without damaging it and fitting it around every non conforming section of the Craft. Just how delicate would that be in the breezes around the Spaceport ? Or imagine fitting it on a laid down Spaceship, how would you raise and Lower such a vessel if you didn’t want to damage the surface … I think that the small tiles with a few standard Sizes are superior to the Space Shuttle unique Tile Regime especially if you are looking at rapid reusability …
A Japanese saying goes:
"If it works, don't fix it"
So it works, no need to change...
Was always asking nasa the same question : they had the same problem ...
The original requirement for the shuttle was for a thermal protection system that would last for 100 flights. The silica tiles were the only thing, at least at the time, that could meet the 100-flight specification. The bulk of the tile damage issues with the Space Shuttle were from impacts from pieces of foam shed from the ET.
AT LEAST IN YOUR COMMENTS YOU SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED A NASA SPACE SHUTTLE THAT GOT DESTROYED ON RE-ENTRY DUE TO MISSING TILE ISSUES WHEN LAUNCHING UP. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
The issue there was that there was an impact on the leading edge of the wing by a piece of foam that broke off from the tank some meters up, but in that area of the wing there were no tiles. See wikipedia "reinforced carbon-carbon".
Move back and forward with the space shuttle. Proven technology.
It works so it makes sense that they keep it. As they say "don't fix it if it ain't broke"
I assume they interlock and have a hook /lock to the steel, in addition to the glue? The highest temp glue or resin I could find fails at around 600F. Cement, with inert minerals, goes higher, which is in muffler cement. I recall stainless steel is probably good up to 22 F.
Now, if they didn't want to put tiny hooks on the steel, they could wrap cylinder in high temp thin bands that could slip into a groove in the tile with the groove having a pocket to grab onto the rope like band, to supplement the adhesive and any interlocking system. This would make tiles falling off unlikely on the bulk of the cylinder. Towards the nose, this system would not work. So a special web might be constructed, shaped to the nose and secured at points to aft of the nose tip. Again each tile would have groves to grab the rope like bar grid to bolster their glue and interlock.
This would offer triple redundancy. Whatever they do now hasn't improved since the 80s and has lead to tiles falling off and the loss of people and ships. They probably need more redundancy in the fastening and inspection and maintenance schedule.
There is another company working off an active cooling system, Stoke Space with their Nova rocket. It uses the engine as a reentry shield based on an old concept by engineer Philip Bono; the coolant that keeps the rocket regulated on ascent is used to keep it cold on descent. Instead of a single or several engine bells it uses dozens of plug nozzles arranged around the bottom of the ship which forms an aerospike when making a burn.
What's about the idea of the " sweat system"?
I have been wondering the same thing!!
That would possibly take up even more mass for the fluid.
Having worked on the insurance claim for the Shuttle can tell you that tiles are cheaper to replace but not good. A solid encompassing coating would be far superior. Missing tiles led to the last Shuttle disaster on re-entry.
No a carbon carbon panel shattered leaving a hole!
@@jackdbur keep being clueless
Starship is made of steel instead of aluminum. So a few lost tiles won't cause a catastrophic failure.
@@user-RCST Steel melts 2,500-2,800 degrees Fahrenheit - breaking into Earth’s atmosphere craft needs to withstand temps up to 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit
@@consultant2678 They left 3 tiles off for IFT4, and the ship survived.
So just space shuttle again
No. Its not only a new gen of tiles, bus also not individually shaped
It's still the same issue. Just being a newer version don't fix it. Dude said in the video they still fall off. Even if what he said about fixing that is true they will still be vulnerable to the same failure that took down challenger. Foreign objects and debris are very damaging to anything aerospace.
@@liamschertler9806 Challenger disaster was o-rings in the SRB. Columbia was the tiles.
@@oliverheaviside2539 Yes. The second I clicked off the comments I realized I got the wrong shuttle but couldn't find my comment to edit.
@@liamschertler9806 Challenger is etched in my mind. I worked on the Shuttle SRB at Thiokol in 1986 when Challenger went down. Bad day.
I remember early in Starship's life, when it was still called BFR, the plan seemed to be using the steel itself as a heat shield with some kind of interior cooling mechanism. I thought that was a big reason for making it out of steel in the first place.
Seems like putting heat shield tiles on the exterior somewhat ruins that original vision. I guess the acoustic pressure would make interior cooling impractical.
It would probably use way too much fuel.
The main reason for using stainless steel is that it is much cheaper than equivalent alternatives.
Ya Elon says a lot of things. This was going to have an actively cooled skin using the methane fuel as coolant. Completely threw that idea out the window once an engineering had a look at it.
@@criticalevent
That's the price of rapid innovation and iteration, I suppose. Some ideas are good, some are bad, but all are worth considering. Landing a rocket on a barge for re-use was considered crazy once too. Catching a rocket back on the launch tower was even crazier.
Better put some flex tape on it
@@stikbotspot5087 or duct tape
To answer the question it’s made up of these tiles so that it’s easier to replace the worn out ones that have succumbed to deformation, therefore making it more economical and helps with things like reusability
Im starting to think that the thermal expansion/contraction properties of the stainless steel were not considered when he came up with this plan.
It's Elon what do you expect
We all know that stainless steel gets really hot in sunlight. It is probably the worst possible material for the outer shell if a spaceship.
Appollo used white painted aluminum and the ISS uses textile.
Yeah, i think that titanium would be a better option because it expands less and has about the same temperature resistance
You actually think Elon came up with using heat tiles lol? More like a whole team of engineers.
@@0siiris I would say ceramic tiles were already considered in the Appollo project and used for the Space Shuttle.
Remember,, These Are Some Of The Smartest People On Planet Earth,, They Know More Than We Do !!! 😮😮😮
Just copied NASA
Copied nasa without paying attention to why nasa stopped using it 😂
Nasa bonded their tiles, SpaceX uses pins. Also SpaceX has no Aluminium behind the tiles which melts at slightly over 600 ° C
@@Coastal_Cruzer they didn't, though. nasa just stopped launching rockets.
For me it being easily breakable is actually a good thing because it forces the workers and the scientist to actually try to notice flaws and perfect and have them cut no cost and possibly cause accidents
What about areo gel?
It is super fragile, but I'm sure they do because I believe that's what it was created for. 🤔
They are not only effective its also the cheapest option with less risk if properly installed and maintained.
The tiles are made of ceramic. they are the same used inside the turbines of a power plant.
I used to work on a power plant.
Just got a notification about a starship exploding and this popped up in my recommendations
That's a good question seeing how when we started the space program we reengineered the atmosphere so objects reentering no longer burn up. We need to look into why people need to use oxygen underwater.
The shuttle used to have a similar issue with losing some of its tiles and needing to be replaced with new ones. This was also one of the reasons the shuttle flew no more - it needed a lot of extra time refurbishing to put it back in action. I hope Starship won't suffer the same fate.
Starship doesn’t have to worry about refurbishment when they can’t figure out how to get the thing to survive liftoff. I’m sure finding a better alternative to those tiles is about as close to the bottom of their punch list as it gets.
@kpro8908 Well, their last launch was impressive, considering what NASA has been doing in the past few years. But still, I am a bit disappointed that the Starship ended up needing tiles as well. When they announced it, it was planned that the steel was going to be enough. But it obviously isn't...
Suggestion: Interlocking tiles using tabs on each side of the hexagon. Tabs on every other side to slide under the tab of adjacent tiles. This system could possibly both accommodate thermal expansion and allow retention of a tile whose attachment had failed.
I remember watching the space shuttle blow up live , an it was from a faulty heat tile, watching those people wave good bye an getting on the shuttle I will never forget because minutes later i watched those same people die.....I was 9 yrs old
i remember the shuttle loosing tiles, now we are still loosing tiles, come on guys get with the program and fix this ya
It's passive but it's sacrificial.
I really feel like there's got to be some type of radiation, exchanger, probably pump driven, that could be worked out....
The tiles are backed up by ablative material in case a few tiles are lost. This was just tested in IFT-5. From what I've been able to gather from various sources, the "sparks" that are seen during the reentry are mostly that ablative material burning off from spots where tiles were intentionally omitted, specifically to test this issue.
"biggest disadvantage is how easily they break (and fall off)"
...
"as long as they are securely attached, they are unlikely to fail"
I think we see an issue
They don’t want to invest on advance materials! They are doing it as business! Simple logic!
I think this is the best current method. I also think they have been in use for a long time.
Their shape also makes them look optimal for many different shapes.
But the issue is that they can fall off. The statement about the static fire says that thousands fall off.
I didn't know the starship was comprised of Stainless steel, so that's an interest8ng fact.
Is it possible to attach larger sections of what those tiles are made from, to those large sections of stainless before those large sections are connected?
The area between the sections where the stainless attaches to another stainless section can be the shape that allows the use of the small tiles.
My biggest argument to this is “then why dont you demonstrate the proper way?” Its expensive trial and error. Doesnt make it the wrong way
I have to laugh at some people who tease people about adopting technology created during the Space Shuttle development program.
But my answer would be first principles thinking. Just because a solution was discovered years ago, why is it not still effective today?
After all, gravity hasn't changed, and thermal management hasn't changed. And combustion vibration hasn't changed. I think one of the keys of the current system is simplicity of application re: reusability. 😂❤
And thank you for the image I was curious about them
I remember comments on Relativity 3D printed version, People were claming that layers roughness would would have heavy impact the aerodynamics, while the owner explained it does not have significant impact, close to none... People love to act smartass...
Hexagons are still the bestagons
The heat-bearing external material has to be able to expand and contract as well, the tiling allows for portions of the tiles to do so without warping an entire fuselage, allowing for localized replacement - which keeps overall costs significantly lower
They use them because they are efficient for whatever SpaceX needs them for. Whenever they become obsolete for whatever purpose they serve, they will be upgraded for what is needed.
I remember that instead of those tiles, they wanted to punch “sweat” holes on the stainless steal starship surface and let the fuel (or oxidizer perhaps) to bleed to absorb the heat. Seems like that didn’t happen. Regardless, they definitely need an alternative heat shield in order to make the journey much safer and turn it into commercial passenger vehicle.
«New design will remove all issues» I think I have heard this before, in multiple unrelated projects.
Tiles are probably the best option. You can replace the ones that break off. Installation ia easier. You don’t have to reinstall everything again, can just reinstall a certain portion
Unlike other spaceships, starships will be running dozens of missions regularly. So it makes more economic sense to have a heat shield that can be easily replaced.
Yup, same silica tiles that the space shuttle used. We still haven't found a glue for tiles that can withstand repeated heat exposure. Eventually, the tiles have to be replaced. It's like changing tires on a car.😊
I'm having flashbacks...
25:48 *joins in* You know the rules and so do I
Seems like they’re going for the coat of plates approach. Instead of one big piece of armor, attach a lot of smaller ones that work in unison so you can repair it way easier
It is always about money. They are just trying to do as cheaply as possible while new technology can be developed as alternatives to heat tiles.
Musk was bragging that they have a better alternative than tiles but in the end they returned to tiles
Bro, wdym WHY? you JUST explained it!😂
I mean it would have been better if the truck matched his speed infront of him and slightly get bumped and then pushed the brakes
Him: “These are not ideal”
Also him: *proceeds to explain why they are ideal*
Wow some real engineers and scientists making videos now
What I love about Elon is he’s Henry Fording every industry he hits. Economies of scale. Something might perform better, but this performs near perfect, scales easier (scales heh heh), tests easier.
And yea it’s not “him” but it is in some sense because that’s where he’s attacking these industries. Mining, electric transit, space.
You all have no idea, the ceramics, shatter, like a light bulb, so you replace it.
Relatedly I’d love to see us develop a way to reliably slow down reentry so we don’t even need heat shields
I agree, but I see why it’s not easy to do. Slowing down from over 17,000 miles per hour is no joke!
@@RicardoSanchez-es5wl ofc but still
Easily replaceable ablative cooling tiles are legitimately an exceptional mechanism, so there's not really any need to change the idea, just to improve the implementation.
I like it when people that are NOT in the profession have a lot of opinions
Safer and easy to fix quickly…a “heat-skin” is not only difficult to fix but can catastrophically fail like a chocolate egg due to external and internal forces causing traveling cracks. Tiles are effectively pre-cracked so the blanket of tiles bends with the body.
I'm looking at you, fin. Awesomeness.
what a day to find this video
That test was epic!
Ngl, the heat tiles make the rocket look really cool too
Duck tape and some popsicle sticks. Don’t expect any less from the best rocket engineer and builders on the planet.
The Russians successfully used blankets made of the same material, and laminated in place successfully on their shuttle. They said using individual tiles seemed crazy, and offered the tech to us. I never understood why we went back to tiles???? A blanket seems a no brainer?
Schluter works great in bathrooms, slap down some Hardie backer using the prescribed ceramic screws and coat it in redguard
I mean the fact that space X reuses the starships is already a huge cost savings compared to replacing those tiles
Amazing content
Dear Elon or to whom it may concern.
I have an idea about the heat shields.
Look at a heat shield. Let's call the flat top 12 o'clock. Now, rotate it 90° left or right rotation doesn't matter. Looking at the sheild on end. 25% of the way down and 25% of the way up drill or cast in tunnels about 3mm all the way through to the other side.
Take a fine braided tungsten wire cable with fiberglass insolation and thread it through the sheild to the next and so on through all the heat shields. The top of one shield will be lashed through the bottom of the one next to it, and so on. At one end of the wire, there should be a simple spring tensioner that will be covered by a bonded on shield. At the other end another adjustable spring tensioner. Also ultimately covered by a bonded on heat shield. Lashing down the heat shields together with a beed of silicone for shock/vibration should keep them put. The correct tension can be calculated to keep the shields from falling off due to heat and or pressure.
Good luck, Elon, with the next launch, and thank you for what you're doing to better mankind..
You could do plasma shielding with magnets and helium, but the energy requirement would be astronomical
Remember folks, this is a ground up space shuttle. SpaceX did exceptionally well with designing this but it will have problems that need to be ironed out
I’m calling it right now, those tiles will the number one issue holding starship back for years to come. There’s a reason it’s what brought the space shuttle program to its knees. I don’t care if it’s much simpler it’s still going to have the same inherit problems
Whatever tile guy got this contract is doing well. Probably surpassed his original retirement goals in the first year.
Larger tile segments . It would take some new engineering and tooling but I think the tiles would be much for affective with much larger sections of formed tiles . Imagine a large 30x30 formed piece . Thermal expansion still an issue but would have way less crevices for hot gas’s to get through and no way to lose single tiles .
I suggest that they use a powder coat tile system that would be easy to apply easy to bake and withstand a lot more temperatures without tiles falling off it would be a permanent shell
"Why don't they install tiles that captures the heat energy from the rocket and then use that to power things inside the rocket itself? We have to save the planet!" - Some DEI employee probably.
My main question is why there are fins up by the nose
The goal is to do a belly flop type reentry, and they use arm and leg flaps to create more or less drag on the top, bottom, left, or right to be able to steer.
@@phillyphakename1255 what?
@@Terra_Egg they have four fins. Picture a dude belly flopping, with 4 appendages, and controlling roll pitch yaw by moving the appendages closer or further to perpendicular to the travel axis. If the legs are out, producing drag but not the arms, you go more head first. If only the left leg and arm, you roll right. If right arm and left leg, you yaw.
Best part about heat tiles is that you don't even need to think about replacing them at all when your whole ship explodes every time 🎉
Your comment didn't age well
Hmmm there was some shuttle which lost few of those tiles, I think it actually blew the **** up
Obviously, since they're good with "retro-rockets" (here meaning the re-entry landing rockets), perhaps there could be a retro-rocket, counter orbit thrust burn, stopping the orbit. After that, little or no heat of reentry (according to Rutan's heat sensing crayons) , and descend at lower velocities, like the Virgin Galactic ship.
This short in short
"Why they use tiles while they are bad? They just use it because they are good."