Regarding the locktite method. I always pop the primer out. This allows air to escape out of the back of the case when the bullet is seated in the lands. Stops loctite from seeping out of the case neck into the chamber of the rifle.
My method is actually the last one that Travis showed. The one where you let the lands push bullet in. But it is neck tension dependent. I also put die wax in bullet ogive to prevent it from sticking in the lands. The method of seating bullet deeper and deeper until bolt closes is the Alex Wheeler method. As you said, there are a tons of ways to measure this. Multiple ways to remove outer layer from feline. 😁
Not a comment for Erik (he clearly knows what he is doing), but a comment on his process. I suspect the benefits of either the second (loctite) or third (Erik Cortina... or similar Alex Wheeler method) is consistency/repeatability in that in the second and third, it is a combination of the camming action of the bolt plus whatever you neck tension is. If you are good at consistent neck tension, then you should get repeatable results. For the first, when using the rod to push the bullet in, that level of force is variable from one person to another and maybe even from one test to another from the same person. I personally use the Alex Wheeler method and have found it to be very repeatable while the rod method is not. The downside of the Wheeler method is you have to do things like remove the extractor, etc. from the bolt because the ONLY force you want to feel is that of the bullet touching, barely touching or not touching the lands as you close the bolt (and not compressing an extractor spring for example). It also requires a bolt that closes easily/smoothly. Lastly, I can imagine using the bolt to seat the bullet vs. the Alex Wheeler method maybe creating different measurements because using the bolt to seat the bullet, is pushing you slightly into the lands, while the Wheeler method may allow you to measure where the lands are just touching. I should probably give Erik's method a try as it might be easier to do in the long run.
Loctite method seems fine. You can then use a sharpie to write the length right on the case, and keep the whole thing as a reference forever. Ideal. Thanks for bringing this to us.
@@John_Redcorn_ Ah! What a treasure trove I'd have if I could have every note and slip of paper I ever wrote something on (and remembered what the hell it meant). But I don't. "Writing things down" is a great idea -- that VERY often doesn't amount to much, lol.
@@John_Redcorn_ LOL. I'm left to wonder just WTF is wrong with you. I gave my idea of how I'd like to do something, and you feel a need to come along to say "No. You should do this instead." Not with the claim of an insight into a better way, and therefore that your way is better, but (seemingly) just to say "Do it my way instead of your way." Good luck with your fucking journal -- perhaps one day you'll have the urge to stick it up your ass! As for me, I prefer a direct object clearly on display (or put in a small drawer specifically for such types of objects) rather than a written DESCRIPTION of the same object, which, to be always available would have to be indexed and catalogued in such a way that the information can be retrieved.
On my race pistol got a neat cutaway realy quick. Once.neet to see how chamber reamer worked well. Going deeper when groups got bad . Nothing loose now . go Deeper.got very good groups. Do em all long now. This sport got to be an " arms race"
EXCELLENT video - that cutaway shows with complete clarity how a cartridge and bullet sit in the chamber with the tolerances that reloaders talk about. As a raw beginner, that first 4 minutes utterly crystallised so much that I've been trying to understand from books. Many Thanks from the UK.
I started reloading in the early 60’s before oal comparators, with all my knowledge coming from reloading books and magazines, totally absorbed into shooting and reloading. Early on, I started trying multiple methods, some discussed here, but I found that if you just took whatever bullet you were going to use, drop it down the bore and just tap it lightly to jam the lands, I took a wooden dowel, advanced down the muzzle till it touched the bullet, then make a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil at muzzle, then push bullet out of the barrel with the dowel, remove bullet, close the bolt , push dowel till it is up against bolt face, then remove dowel. Measuring the distance with my trusty Craftsman dial caliper precisely gives me my max coal for that particular bullet. I would then and now, especially it seems with all Berger bullets, they do better with up to .080 of jump. This easy method has always worked for me. I would like to have one of those nice Delrin rods though. Would seem to be perfect to use for same method.
Great method. To me its finding the accurate seating depth, not the lands. I let the target tell me where to seat the bullet when working up a load. I think many of them have a good sized jump. Or not. lol
Tap the bullet into lands. Use dowel to touch bullet then scribe mark at muzzle. Tap bullet out, install bolt. Put dowel down bore to rest on bolt face. Question: do you mark the dowel? The difference from mark 1 to mark 2 is the Coal length.....correct? Thanx for reply....
ONE CRITICAL THING WITH THE LOCTITE. you need to de-prime the brass! If not, the air inside the case will push out the loctite into the chamber. dont ask me how i know this..
I haven' tried this method but was thinking the same. We use those anaerobic adhesives on a great many things in my trade and some of them are no joke. Since they put this to the masses they should have spent much more time on it and emphasized which ones to use and exactly how to do it with no fudge room.
Gavin, that's the first and best visual demonstration I've seen on this subject. I really liked it, you guys. Maybe another video on where factory ammo is set and the difference of the precise measurement and effects of the differences on performance and barrel ?
When using the OAL gauge, try using this with the rifle in a vertical position. What this does by having the muzzle pointing upwards, you can lightly lift the bullet to the contact point and not jam the bullet into the lands. If your bullet is sticking into the lands, you really have no idea how deep that is going.
Great information for reloaders, even if we are not building a rifle or taking our reloading to that degree. Understanding this and seeing it really helps to understand how everything really works together for accuracy!
I’ve used a brass rod and two locking collars. You close the bolt and insert the rod to the bolt face and set a collar at the barrel end. Then insert a bullet and use a pencil or rod to hold pressure on the bullet from the action end. Insert the rod to the bullet tip and set another collar. Measure between them and you have your jam. But Eric’s method is much simpler.
I like this way. I have tried the modified case but didn’t really like it so I just got this one do come up the the same theory as yours. “Frankford Arsenal Cartridge Overall Length Gage”. I like your idea with brass rod and lock rings. I’ll have to find your components and check it out.
I agree with Eriks method and have used it for some 40+ years, I do however use a modified version of that for super super exact loadings, What I do for those is I use my normal push back method and add to it by blackening the bullet with a sharpie or carbon black. I insert the test cartridge, close the bolt and note the land marks on the bullet after it has been pushed back. I then repeat 3 x and note the lengths....depending on the marks of the lands on the bullet will let u judge on whether or not your 3 bullets are seating on the lands consistently and with the same force. Always always always measure your length consistencies exactly like you showed in the video, using the apex of the bullet ogive. Beginning shooters might want to measure from the bullet tip but NEVER NEVER do it as tip profiles in the same batch of bullets can vary significantly, the ogive or slope profiles never changes at least in the same lot of bullets......Use a diffrent lot......start all over..... Just saying !!!!!!!
I've used Travis' method for years. I recently picked up the Hornady tool and haven't quite tested it like you guys but it's interesting to see that the bullet can be pushed further in and logically that makes sense. Thanks for the videos guys!
I’ve used the sharpie method for several decades, but bought hornady’s oal gauge 3-4 years back. I made my own dummy cases (fired in my chambers) and bored and tapped on my lathe. I use a hardwood dowel in conjunction with the gauge to push the bullet back and forth to get a good feel for the contact of the bullet and the lands.
I use a cleaning rod with a jag that's filed smooth at the end. On the rod, I placed two nylon bushings. With the bolt closed, I run the rod to the bolt face and the two bushings to the muzzle end. I then put a bullet in the chamber and push it forward until it touches the lands. Holding the bullet in place, I run the cleaning rod until it touches the tip of the bullet and position the second bushing closest to the muzzle against the muzzle end. Measure the length from the beginning of one bushing to end of second one. The OAL from the bolt face to the lands is the measured length minus the total length of the two bushings.
I always used the modified case that Hornady sales and their OAL tool until I seen the video on how Eric Cortina's does it. He even says he lubes the bullet with sizing die wax to help keep the bullet from sticking and it works really good with bolt action rifles. I still use the Hornady modified case method when I'm working up a load on AR15s. Great video as always keepem coming guys!!!
Gavin I do two things. I use a fire formed case. Next I take out the firing pin and the extractor out of the bolt. Then I put the case and bolt in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed freely closed I will bump the shoulder of the case .0005 how ever many times it takes until the bolt falls closed. When that part is done the most free clearance you will have with the case is .00045. Then I start the same prosses over with the bullet. I will start with a measurement using the Hornaday gauge. Then I put the case and bullet in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed then I will seat the bullet by .002 to .003 at a time. You will know when your about perfect. The bolt will start to fall half way then 2/3. At this point I go to .0005 seating change. When the bolt falls closed you will never be more than .00045 off the lands for that bullet batch #. The only reason for doing this is to know that exact length the bullet ogive touches the lands. I've been shooting bench from 1968 to know. The truth of the matter is the way you showed it the video works the same as I've done. Now matter how you find the lands we all start seating bullets + or - from the measurement we both got from our method we used to find the node the gun shoots at. I will say one thing. I made a tool using a seating die plunge and a dial indicator and comp to check ogive to tip of bullet where the plunger sits. I then write this down and check any other bullet I choose. Using math any other bullet I use I will know where to seat the bullet to start making up a new load just off the lands. I love your work keep it up. I built my first rifle in 1978 22PPC. One other thing, the tool I made and the seating die I use for any give caliber I had reamers made to redo there inside where the bullet hit so they are exactly the same. Good luck Rick D.
Dear Richard, I think you may have the decimal point in the wrong place. Also it is not poss to measure that accurately with a calliper , 0.0005 i.e. Half a thousandth at real best. Regards
@@redhunterknives6675 My dies are able to bump a half thousandth at a time or .0005 my first bump on a fire formed brass is .0015. The point was find just off the lands. If your bolt does not fall closed by it self (no firing pin or extractor) after you know the shoulder of case is not at fault, then your bullet is still touching the lands. PS .0005 is a half thousandth. All my chambers In my bench guns are custom. I use Dave Manson reamers that I have ground to my specs. .0005 +.0005= .001 Shoot tight groups.
Thanks for the ongoing videos. Great stuff. I will say I have driven myself crazy trying to get consistent readings with the OAL gauge. (Especially true with VLD bullets.) TINY variances in pressure on the push rod change the distance to the lands a fair bit. It’s a hassle to remove the firing pin and ejector button (Wheeler method) or Barrel for the fingernail lift method (Mark Gordon method, explained in the Precision Rifle Blog), but I have found these methods very consistent.
When I was getting started I would lightly tap a fired case neck on the bench it would provide enough resistance to let the bullet slide into the lands but also allow it to come out. I would do it 3 times to ensure consistency.
I originally used the last method but got tired of having bullets stuck in the barrel and starting over.. then i used the hornady gauge method.. from now on i will start using the loctite method. I like the idea of having a hard copy of each specific bullet/chamber combo i reload for. Going to loctite it in then laser engrave the bullet/rifle combo on the case! Thanks gavin
I use the OAL method with their factory cases. My problem with that tool is you never get the same reading twice so I take 5 reading and take the average of the closes setting. I'm going to try the Locktite method as that seems like it would be very accurate. Would like to have seen you take multiple reading of each type to see if you get the same reading (or close) every time.
Same, I always take 5 readings with it as well, I find the first one or two are off and then the rest are pretty consistent, I usually blame myself tbh
I use the oal and get the same reading. My problem is when I seat my bullet with my die i keep getting different lengths I'm using match dies everything is tight and secure. Any thoughts?
@@jeremydunn5903 call the die manufacturer and ask how to properly use it. They should have a support line. Get it from them rather than.. " um, ah " suggestions. This shit ain't funny when things go wrong.
Love using the last method that Travis showed. Very simple and works great. Regardless of what method is used - CONSISTANCY is the most important factor - choose a method and stick with it.
Very Good Information. I love the third method (that I have always used) since it requires no special devices or tools and it is easy IF you are shooting different weights, lengths and ogive geometry, Use a once-fired case, tension the neck ONLY and let the lands seat the bullet. Important that you are careful that the land tension does not pull the bullet out of seating during the extraction of the test cartridge. Perform this a few times and look for consistency. I love watching your knowledge evolve Gavin; its evident form early the early vids to the latest. Shoot on!
Using the OAL gauge, you're pushing the bullet into the lands, whereas with the other methods, you're not. That is why you're seeing a difference. I've learned to use the gauge and NOT push so hard. Push until you meet resistance then release and then lock the push bar in place. I find that you will see the same kind of measurements as the locktite method.
That's why I want to find my O.A.L. with a fire formed case and resized with just enough neck tension to hold the projectile in place so I'm not jamming it into the lands, just touching. But at the same time I'm not putting to little neck tension so that when I hit it with calipers, it doesn't push the bullet inside the case. I do that 3 times and measure 3 times. If the measurements are the same or pretty close +/- .001 I know I'm good. If the measurements are off, then I know the neck tension is to tight because If the first measurement is 3.290" and the next is 3.330 that means the lands are grabbing the bullet....The bullet shape could be off that much BUT I doubt it.
You can also use some graphite dry lube on the part of the bullet that makes contact with the lands (Ogive) to help prevent the bullet from sticking in your bore.
Just starting to get into hand loading and it is easy to get lost in the weeds… This video is. very helpful. How do you approach initial cartridge length measurements for a new system? Imagine new rifle, brass, etc… for the initial firing of new brass, the recommended approach is to seat the bullets at the lands… I understand that it is critical to get a measurement from the bolt face to the lands which the gauge method cannot provide. The difference between the gauge measurement and the bolt methods implies extra headspace even on a fired case… it has been mentioned elsewhere that it can take more than a single firing for a case to fully expand to the chamber dimension and there should be some spring back expected as well. Keep up the great work!
Good video. I have a few comments. 1. There was a bit of confusion - the pushing in with the gauge gave a LONGER reading than the Locktite or the sized case methods. This means the camming effect of the bolt pushed the bullet FURTHER into lands. 2. I have used the sized case method for decades - with a variation. I mark the bullet with a Sharpie marker pen (traditionally use a candle to apply soot). I seat the bullet long and note the comparator reading. I then chamber it with the bolt. When I remove the dummy round, sometimes the bullet can get stuck in the lands and needs to be tapped out. Now the rifling marks and the case mark are clear on the bullet as the Sharpie ink will be scratched. Now I can seat the bullet back to the sharpie case neck mark & measure on the comparator. 3. The scratch mark on the sharpie ink shows the taper effect of the rifling & when the bullet starts engaging with rifling. Normally about +/- 2 mm or 80 thou.
One issue with using the close the bolt method is that the seating depth might be increased by the pressure of the bolt. Furthermore, then when the bolt is retracted the bullet might ease out slightly from the case. It would seem the loktite method provides a good maintain of the bullet in the case. But I cringe at any red loktite in my chamber!
I used to use the hornady tool with modified cases, but swapped over to the wheeler method a couple years ago. Just seemed the most consistent. Also amazing how many people I have seen with the hornday gauge backwards on the caliper. Not difficult to put the screw in the right side so the gauge is centered to the caliper blade.
I used to sharpie mark the ogive and look for land marks on the bullet. I've since been using the Hornady OAL gauge and I find the OAL gauge much easier and more accurate on my .223 and .308.
Very enlightening. Well done. One comment: (at 2:58 timestamp) It was stated that the ogive is being compressed. It. Is VERY difficult (darn near impossible) to compress metal. Metal is actually being moved (i.e., making burrs in the bullet) by contact with the rifling. This point may seem trivial to some, and is often misunderstood by laymen.
I am really new to precision reloading. Why do you want to "Chase The Lands" and is this why I see different OAL for different bullets for the same caliber? Really appreciate the video.
For 40 years I have held an unloaded case above a candle to get a good sooty effect. Close the bolt gently, extract, and see if you are touching the lands, and by how much. Seat bullet slightly deeper and repeat the process. When the bolt closes easily and there is only the lightest mark of the lands, you know you are good to go to calculate further seating depth. This may be too inaccurate for the most exacting bench-rest shooters, but it gives me one-hole groups from my .222 Rem. I also prefer to headspace using the bolt rather than the shoulder of the cartridge.
I started this modest little reloading channel myself, for beginners to cover things I didn't understand and were difficult to find. I just started precision, magnum reloading for a 300 PRC and 6.5 PRC. I'm going to share this on my channel and I really appreciate you guys demonstrating the importance of OAL measuring and using such a visually descriptive method to show this. I'm learning more and more myself and I happen to be at this step, as the .300 PRC seems to be VERY finicky about Ammo. I'm realizing that using book load data was giving me 0.0945" of jump on the 212 grain ELD-X and 0.215" of jump on the 250 grain A-tips.
I learned to reload on the 6.5 prc and recently the 300 prc. the long jump is typical on magazine fed rounds. To get the bullets up to touchpoint, with the new longer bullets, they won't fit in the magazine. Fortunately there are some good nodes at long jumps. As the throat erodes you may have to adjust seating depth. The long bearing surfaces seem to keep these new long bullets lined up despite the long jump until engagement of the lands.
Cheap trick: Glue the bullet in the casing, load it before the glue has dried, wait for it to dry, pull out. Put it in bullet seating dye, adjust the dye until you feel resistance.
I've used the first two, but until now hadn't thought about the third method! And I like that 3rd idea and will test it in my rifle. By the way, I am not a competition shooter, I just like to be as good as I can while hunting. Thank you so much for sharing 🙂
I think on the last method where you have a seated bullet long and then close the bolt on it you need to make sure that you don't have a lot of neck tension.
For cheap people like myself, you can buy steel wire the diameter of the primer hole and a lock collar the same diameter for a couple of bucks at a hardware store. No need to modify the case. I prefer the loctite version because it incorporates the bolt into the solution. Seems to be the most accurate method in my mind. Thanks for the video. Very good info
Sorry late to using You tube I was taught (1970) to use a, neck sized fire formed case, light seat of bullet, soot with candle (let cool). Then put five in one by one normal locking of the bolt (first locking lugs should be polished to give even pressure) then measure OAL of the five, and average them. Set the bullet seating depth accordingly. Depending on the quality of the rifle, one of the locking lugs will inevitably seat tighter so should be found and corrected before worrying about the lands effect on accuracy, as it will change the measured value. I liked the idea of using the Locktite though.
Also...for those considering the Hornady gauge, if you send Hornady two fired unsized cases, they will modify your case and send it back to you for $15. I got mine back in about two weeks.
@@ivymike3459 The tap is 5/16-36tpi - You can get them from McMaster-Carr and probably other places that sell machinist tooling. You will likely not find it at the local hardware store.
I use a very similar process as the 3rd one he showed. The only difference is I take a very thin Emery cutting wheel and cut the neck to relieve some of the tension from the size case.
I use the same as you... It's very simple and easy to do. But I usually paint the bullet with a white board pen, just to see if the bullet was pushed out when you extract the case!
The third method seems the easiest and fastest to do. just load a case with a loose bullet in the chamber and close the bolt. The great thing I can see about this one is that I could quickly do it as I am setting up my press for a loading session for a whole batch of a particular bullet. Then when you change to a different bullet type, quickly do the same
This is such a great video So well done. The cut away of the chamber is priceless. This is the only channel you can see this very special content. This video is a game changer
That's not the way I understood his video, I think he sizes his brass the same way he always does, with. 002 bump but sans powder and primer, that way its consistent.
Excellent video Gavin and Travis. I use the Alex Wheeler method for bullet seating and the Erik Cortina method for finding head space and setting up my FL sizing dies.
Sinclair OAL gauge does not get enough love. Takes a bit of math to calc the base to ogive, but results are consistent and no need for a modified case. Great video though!
I use the seating die and a resized empty unprimed case. In increments bullet seating further out until it does not chamber and I get rifling/lands marks on the bullet or the opposite and seating further down until it does chamber and no marks are visible but this takes a number of new unmarked bullets. Then I back it off to my desired COL. As stated, bullet type makes a big difference and results are based on each bullet type. I don't get stuck bullets in the lands this way since the bullet is seated. I only do it to know my chamber size. I do not chase the lands like I used to. Some rifles do not like it close to the lands while others do so I shoot different COL loads until I find the "sweet" chamber spot or accuracy node and that sweet spot will change between types of bullets and over time throat erosion. I have a .223 chamber that absolutely hates bullets close to the lands for that short jump. It likes a long jump to hit its best accuracy. Same for a .22-250 chamber.
@@50Quid-d3x I have a Remington 700 BDL .222 or Triple 2 that likes it close to the lands with 55gr. Nosler ballistic tips. That load will shoot a five shot group through the same hole (without making the hole bigger) at 100 yards.
Awesome video. I wanted to save some money for projectiles and powder so I took a case and instead of a full resize I just gave it enough to hold on to the projectile. Not too tight, but not enough to pull out. Paint with a sharpie and push it in and lock it down. I ran it multiple times to verify the bullet wasn’t pulling back out as I have had that happen in early stages. But just like you guys said pick a method and stick with it because you can get varying numbers different ways. Biggest thjng is making sure when you bring the dummy round back out, the rifling hasn’t pulled the bullet out. Sharpy helps you see that!
Without a wordy description, I use the method described in the Speer manual I got back in 1989 when my reloading journey began. I have only modified It slightly over the years but didn’t change the overall method it works for me.
I use the Hornady AOL gauge and light fingertip pressure. I'm not shooting benchers, but I do like to work on improving precision in my hunting rifles. Did I miss where you told us what drill and tap to use to make our own modified cases?
I use the bolt to seat the bullet into the lands. Reason, when i started loading now over 70 years ago, things like comparators didnt exist. But matches for blackening the bullet did.
I use a partially sized case, I only size about 1/16 - 1/8 inch of the case mouth. This way the bullet slides into case a bit easier so the bullet is less apt to stick into the rifling. My cast bullet loads take a bit more care on the neck tension. I'll repeat this check several times to average out the measurement, then set a bullet a bit long then using a sharpie on the bullet and progressively seat deeper till I find a length to just mark the place that the bullet fully seals to the throat.
Been using the OAL gauges and have always done it the exact same way every time so I'm hopefully consistent there. However a bullet specific dummy set up to the lands would be a time saver and is clearly accurate as shown. Might have to dig out the red loktite
I’ll be using the Loctite retaining compound or the 290 adhesive. If you use the 290, BEWARE! It’s a wicking adhesive, use a very small amount smeared IN the case. If it leaks out it’ll glue the case and bullet in place. Once you get them out, there will be a hardened film adhered in your chamber.
I also use the 3ed method, but I very lightly tighten up the very end of the neck with my die set so the bullet won't stick in the barrel, I also use a black marker to see the rifling. 👍
Gavin, I use the Hornady gauge, but I do a simple correction using the Hornady case headspace gauges), I measure the headspace dimension of the Hornady drilled & tapped gauge case vs. one of my fire-formed case from my rifle. I apply that headspace correction to the base-to-ogive dimension I measure with the Hornady COAL gauge, which gives me the base-to-ogive length for MY brass. Sure, I could drill & tap my good brass, but simply applying the delta of the headspace length between Hornady's inexpensive gauge case and my fired/resized cases lets me keep my brass for shooting. The Hornady gauge cases cost about the same as a cup of coffee, so not having to set up my lathe for drilling and tapping (using a Wilson case length gauge as a chuck) is worth it!
I have a sacrificial case for each caliber which I cut petals into the neck. I can easily tension a bullet enough so it will just contact the lands but be held enough to keep it in when extracted.
I use the Hornady gage but I don’t push it in. Buy hand I gently turn the barrel down so it’s straight down then let the rod down easy that way gravity is the only push
Thanks for the video! Getting the same results w/ loctite & jamming the bullet into the case does not make sense to me. Personally I will continue to use the OAL gauge and experiment with a force gauge to push on the rod.
I've been using the Cortina method for a while then got told to use an AOL gauge so bought one and found it to inconsistent so went back to the Cortina method as it was just way more consistent.
Deprimed case, superglue works very well and no fear of it changing over time. I use the Hornady OAL guage with the ogive set. I can change bullets and have them with the same jump.
A couple of decades ago when I was REALLY into making the best ammo I could, I used Sinclair’s comparator. It’s similar in that it uses the bullet in the chamber, take a measurement. Runs fired case in and take a measurement then subtract the part of the bullet that will be in the neck and measure the over all length. I would prefer to measure off of the olive but their option was full length, bullet seated. I really like that Loctite method for the shooting I do now. Thanks, Jeff
First thought, do yourself a favor and use the Accuracy One seating depth comparator. It measures between the case shoulder and bullet ogive. So much more precise and quicker than the CBTO method/tool. Saves you on the math too. Hornady OAL is great and is best if you use a fired case with the shoulder bumped .001" so it's sure to chamber smoothly and headspace off of the shoulder. If you don't size (ever so slightly) the body of the case could stop the shell from fully reaching the shoulder and thus giving false readings. You can use the Hornady virgin case for this but there will be some math and corrections needed to get accurate numbers. Case base to shoulder lengths on a fired case need to be noted so that corrections can be made to the base to shoulder length of the virgin case. This "difference" needs to either be added to or subtracted from the CBTO measurement you get to the lands with the virgin case. Again, works fine but there's math you have to be aware of. Throw a virgin, belted magnum case gauge in the mix and it will not get true readings, you can't. That's why it's best to use a fired, slightly sized case with this method. Here's the method I use now and have found to be the most precise and consistent: Use a fired, very slightly sized case and polish the outside with steel wool. I don't want it sticky in the chamber at all. Seat a bullet a little longer than it needs and lightly push the case into the chamber by finger. It should "stick" because the bullet is in the lands. You'll need a cleaning rod to push it back out. Now, seat your bullet in the die shorter until it will not stick anymore. You want to find the spot where it is not sticking but .001" longer will. When you go to push the cartridge out with the rod, it will come with no resistance. This is a true measurement of no jump nor jam. I can feel a difference in .0005" difference in seating on the cleaning rod when you get to the right spot.
I use the OAL gage for all my reloading- it is what I learned so I bought my own gage and cases and use it to establish starting points for my various rifles.
last method is fastest to a result in the .001range of other methods, easy choice due to johny's reloading bench who is slightly different though conceptually close. One of the earliest things I learned was seating depth is a variation with manipulatable & testable features so start somewhere with a goal in mind and test away.
i have used the last method for years but i use a sinclair hex nut style comparator to measure from the ogive. Works very well. I repeat the process about 10-15 times to make sure i get an accurate reading. Has produced a many a good load both for hunting and long range taget.
The cut away barrel was a excellent teaching aid ,everything changes for a change in Bullet manufactures even given the same bullet weight ,Berger verses Sierra or Hornady I wish you would have mentioned that
The loctite method works like a damn charm. Feel like I owe you money for that tip. I bought an old hall action benchrest rifle chambered in 6ppc .262 neck. However there was zero info on the chamber, gunsmith, and so on and zero items included with the rifle at auction. Barrel was new never fired action/ bolt also never fired so a deal I couldn’t turn down but trying to load for something like that with no info on chamber/seating specs kinda intimidating. That barrel my have been put on the action 30 plus years ago for all I know But having the exact depth for touching the lands helps a lot. Thanks!!
Minimizing jump/finding the lands is one of the more persistent myths (IMO). I was a full on adherent until reading an article back in 2016 that indicated that not all bullets, particularly the newer VLD/ELD designs, responded well to that approach and actually gave better results with more jump. Having acquired a megnetospeed to fine tune my 6.5/RPR loads (never really trusted my Chrony), I set up a test with my, to that point, most accurate load. The change I made was to set the COAL at the 'book' value in the loading manual using Hornady's ELD-M bullet. I then setup of 5 shot loads of incremental COAL increase/Decrease from that point of .001 changes until the COAL maxed out "at the Lands" limit I had previously established with a dummy round. What I found was that the RPR/ELD-M had a very specific 'range' that gave best SD/ES and accuracy and it was NOT anywhere close to the lands. It was a range of approx .003" around the book COAL which was astonishing to me have 'grown' up reloading for over 35 years at that point, believing that best accuracy was ALWAYS found seating the bullet out close to the lands. This did not change when my barrel went past its 'speed bump' that most go through around 300 rounds or so. Like any load customization, what your particular rifle likes is going to be very individual, so really anyone's 'best load' is pretty much an ancedotal one off for that rifle/component combination. But before anyone goes all in on the "get as close to the lands as you can" paradigm, test your rifle with a good chronogrpah like the Magnetospeed or Labradar and spend some time testing various COAL setups. You might be surprised by what you find. IMO - YMMV
I was shown to use the OAL gauge and the rod down the barrel together, so you push the case into the chamber, then using both rods "feel" for the lands with as little force as possible. When you have it lock the OAL and remove. Do this 3 times and compare results. Seems to work fine.
You should do a headspace measurement on a fired or resized case and compare it to the modified unfired case. Add the difference for a precise measurement.
I did the Hornady gauge and the black sharpie method and then split the difference for my 28 Nosler.I figured .006 off for the Berger VLDs I'm shooting and I have no problem shooting at any target.Once I got my Kilo 2400 set up I'm shooting out to 1500 no problem.Gone as far as 1870 and made hits.
We have tried the bolt insert method...but it didn't work without some resistance to hold bullet into case. We used a lee collet die to introduce some case to bullet interference but still all bullet movement when bolt is closed...is that okay? You didn't cover why you remove firing pin from bolt even though you mentioned you would...please do so.... Also marking the bullet with black marker.... The land marks on the bullet are very difficult to distinguish. Question: if the bullet is jammed into land wouldn't that give an incorrect reading of .00015 or more when using the marker routine? 21:26
I take a fired case and neck size only. I then use a dremel with a cut off wheel and cut two slots from the case mouth to the shoulder in a straight line with the cartridge and 180 degees from each other. Then deburr the slots. This allows the bullet to be pushed in when chambering. The bullet touches the lands and the tension holds the bullet enough to remove cartridge and check seating depth. Works well and can be used with any bullet over and over again
I have been using the Sinclair COL guage now for 7 years and it gives an exact measurement every time and does not require modified cases or anything like that. I have found it to be the way to go. I am a 1000yd benchrest competition shooter and its my way for both my 6bra light gun and 7saum unlimited gun
I've never checked... I have only ever used the manual data... I'm gonna give it a try for sure!!! Hopefully I'll get better rounds quickly.. using my saved data over the course of a long trial and error period and checking the lands this way(method 3 most likely) I'll get everything tuned in...
I haven't used the lock-tite method but that one seems to be very useful in that you could do so for multiple bullets and also keep them for future reference. Like a comparison as the rifel ages and wears.
So do you trim the casing before you do any of these steps? Also how do you check if a casing needs trimming from the get go? Sorry I’m new to reloading and have no idea. Trying to learn from all these RUclips videos.
TIP: for the Hornady bullet comparator; I just measured 3 different 223 bullets of different weights and manufacturers and found a total of CBTO variance of some .030. All bullets must have identical O'Gives. Then I removed the plastic plunger and filed down the rounded end into a more pointed end and remeasured a 3 bullets again @ 8 each and found the new total variance of the same bullets to be .010. In two of the bullets the CBTO variance was less than 5%. Very accurate now. My conclusion is the bullet bases are not 100% perpendicular to the concentricity of the bullet and the plastic plunger end is too large to get an accurate reading on a small point from the base of the bullets. This was all done in a brand-new JC Custom barrel just purchased and not installed. I wish Hornady would install a smaller metal pointed end on their plunger for a little extra money.
Cracking video lads. The risk with using the bolt to 'press' the bullet into the lands is that when you lift/retract the bolt you may pull the bullet back out of the case a little (if it is snug in the lands) this would gove a false reading and you would never know it had happened. If you colour the 'whole' of the bullet with a sharpie pen, "then' carry out the bolt press method, not only will you get lands markings, but you will also see any bullet extraction that may occur as there would be a clean ring just above the neck where the bullet had been dragged back out of the case a little. Also, as somebody mentions below, a tiny smear of case lube on the ogive may be a good idea.
Excellent video.. I was just thinking today on the relationship between the case,bullet and the reamer used.. I knew there had to be some degree of measurement to cut the chamber to get the cartridge to a more precise depth. This changes my perception of ordering a new custom barrel.. Being a Design/Engineer I’m wondering if the bullet,case,reamer can be entered in CAD to find the best potential clearance’s for the setup prior to the cut.. would love to give that a try.
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Regarding the locktite method. I always pop the primer out. This allows air to escape out of the back of the case when the bullet is seated in the lands. Stops loctite from seeping out of the case neck into the chamber of the rifle.
My method is actually the last one that Travis showed. The one where you let the lands push bullet in. But it is neck tension dependent. I also put die wax in bullet ogive to prevent it from sticking in the lands. The method of seating bullet deeper and deeper until bolt closes is the Alex Wheeler method. As you said, there are a tons of ways to measure this.
Multiple ways to remove outer layer from feline. 😁
Nice! I was surprised at how consistent this method was.
Not a comment for Erik (he clearly knows what he is doing), but a comment on his process. I suspect the benefits of either the second (loctite) or third (Erik Cortina... or similar Alex Wheeler method) is consistency/repeatability in that in the second and third, it is a combination of the camming action of the bolt plus whatever you neck tension is. If you are good at consistent neck tension, then you should get repeatable results. For the first, when using the rod to push the bullet in, that level of force is variable from one person to another and maybe even from one test to another from the same person. I personally use the Alex Wheeler method and have found it to be very repeatable while the rod method is not. The downside of the Wheeler method is you have to do things like remove the extractor, etc. from the bolt because the ONLY force you want to feel is that of the bullet touching, barely touching or not touching the lands as you close the bolt (and not compressing an extractor spring for example). It also requires a bolt that closes easily/smoothly. Lastly, I can imagine using the bolt to seat the bullet vs. the Alex Wheeler method maybe creating different measurements because using the bolt to seat the bullet, is pushing you slightly into the lands, while the Wheeler method may allow you to measure where the lands are just touching. I should probably give Erik's method a try as it might be easier to do in the long run.
Erik's method is what I've been using for the past 10yrs.
For this method, do you use form sized brass or re-sized brass ?
And the feline is much maligned. Thank YOU for sharing! I used my lighter to smoke the bullet!
Loctite method seems fine. You can then use a sharpie to write the length right on the case, and keep the whole thing as a reference forever. Ideal. Thanks for bringing this to us.
Exactly what I done, except I just used some regular glue instead of loctite, but then all the info is on the case
Why not just right it down in your reload book?
@@John_Redcorn_ Ah! What a treasure trove I'd have if I could have every note and slip of paper I ever wrote something on (and remembered what the hell it meant). But I don't. "Writing things down" is a great idea -- that VERY often doesn't amount to much, lol.
@@GetMeThere1 well thats why they make reload journals with places to write these things down. Lol 😂
@@John_Redcorn_ LOL. I'm left to wonder just WTF is wrong with you. I gave my idea of how I'd like to do something, and you feel a need to come along to say "No. You should do this instead." Not with the claim of an insight into a better way, and therefore that your way is better, but (seemingly) just to say "Do it my way instead of your way." Good luck with your fucking journal -- perhaps one day you'll have the urge to stick it up your ass! As for me, I prefer a direct object clearly on display (or put in a small drawer specifically for such types of objects) rather than a written DESCRIPTION of the same object, which, to be always available would have to be indexed and catalogued in such a way that the information can be retrieved.
So cool to see a actual cutaway while you guys explain what’s going on. That definitely makes it clear what every little step on the print is for!
On my race pistol got a neat cutaway realy quick. Once.neet to see how chamber reamer worked well.
Going deeper when groups got bad . Nothing loose now . go
Deeper.got very good groups. Do em all long now. This sport got to be an " arms race"
EXCELLENT video - that cutaway shows with complete clarity how a cartridge and bullet sit in the chamber with the tolerances that reloaders talk about. As a raw beginner, that first 4 minutes utterly crystallised so much that I've been trying to understand from books. Many Thanks from the UK.
Yes, it was awesome
I started reloading in the early 60’s before oal comparators, with all my knowledge coming from reloading books and magazines, totally absorbed into shooting and reloading. Early on, I started trying multiple methods, some discussed here, but I found that if you just took whatever bullet you were going to use, drop it down the bore and just tap it lightly to jam the lands, I took a wooden dowel, advanced down the muzzle till it touched the bullet, then make a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil at muzzle, then push bullet out of the barrel with the dowel, remove bullet, close the bolt , push dowel till it is up against bolt face, then remove dowel. Measuring the distance with my trusty Craftsman dial caliper precisely gives me my max coal for that particular bullet. I would then and now, especially it seems with all Berger bullets, they do better with up to .080 of jump. This easy method has always worked for me. I would like to have one of those nice Delrin rods though. Would seem to be perfect to use for same method.
I like your method!
Great method. To me its finding the accurate seating depth, not the lands. I let the target tell me where to seat the bullet when working up a load. I think many of them have a good sized jump. Or not. lol
Took a picture of your method. I would think it’s the most accurate method without special tools. Delton rods are easy to order.
This method is the only method I use.
Tap the bullet into lands. Use dowel to touch bullet then scribe mark at muzzle. Tap bullet out, install bolt. Put dowel down bore to rest on bolt face. Question: do you mark the dowel?
The difference from mark 1 to mark 2 is the Coal length.....correct?
Thanx for reply....
ONE CRITICAL THING WITH THE LOCTITE.
you need to de-prime the brass! If not, the air inside the case will push out the loctite into the chamber.
dont ask me how i know this..
I haven' tried this method but was thinking the same. We use those anaerobic adhesives on a great many things in my trade and some of them are no joke. Since they put this to the masses they should have spent much more time on it and emphasized which ones to use and exactly how to do it with no fudge room.
@@indydurtdigger2867 yeah it's a mess to remove, as its like lacquer when dried. Can't be easily solved by chems either.
Thex
@@jmkhenka nail varnish remover eats loctite threadlocker
@@pj4433 Some of them yes. Others are chem resistant if not outright insoluble.
Gavin, that's the first and best visual demonstration I've seen on this subject. I really liked it, you guys. Maybe another video on where factory ammo is set and the difference of the precise measurement and effects of the differences on performance and barrel ?
When using the OAL gauge, try using this with the rifle in a vertical position. What this does by having the muzzle pointing upwards, you can lightly lift the bullet to the contact point and not jam the bullet into the lands. If your bullet is sticking into the lands, you really have no idea how deep that is going.
Great information for reloaders, even if we are not building a rifle or taking our reloading to that degree. Understanding this and seeing it really helps to understand how everything really works together for accuracy!
I’ve used a brass rod and two locking collars. You close the bolt and insert the rod to the bolt face and set a collar at the barrel end. Then insert a bullet and use a pencil or rod to hold pressure on the bullet from the action end. Insert the rod to the bullet tip and set another collar. Measure between them and you have your jam. But Eric’s method is much simpler.
....and remember that we just do this once to get the measurements to use to adjust seating depth.🤙
I like this way. I have tried the modified case but didn’t really like it so I just got this one do come up the the same theory as yours. “Frankford Arsenal Cartridge Overall Length Gage”. I like your idea with brass rod and lock rings. I’ll have to find your components and check it out.
I agree with Eriks method and have used it for some 40+ years, I do however use a modified version of that for super super exact loadings, What I do for those is I use my normal push back method and add to it by blackening the bullet with a sharpie or carbon black. I insert the test cartridge, close the bolt and note the land marks on the bullet after it has been pushed back. I then repeat 3 x and note the lengths....depending on the marks of the lands on the bullet will let u judge on whether or not your 3 bullets are seating on the lands consistently and with the same force. Always always always measure your length consistencies exactly like you showed in the video, using the apex of the bullet ogive. Beginning shooters might want to measure from the bullet tip but NEVER NEVER do it as tip profiles in the same batch of bullets can vary significantly, the ogive or slope profiles never changes at least in the same lot of bullets......Use a diffrent lot......start all over..... Just saying !!!!!!!
I've used Travis' method for years. I recently picked up the Hornady tool and haven't quite tested it like you guys but it's interesting to see that the bullet can be pushed further in and logically that makes sense. Thanks for the videos guys!
I’ve used the sharpie method for several decades, but bought hornady’s oal gauge 3-4 years back. I made my own dummy cases (fired in my chambers) and bored and tapped on my lathe. I use a hardwood dowel in conjunction with the gauge to push the bullet back and forth to get a good feel for the contact of the bullet and the lands.
I use the locktite method, however instead of using locktite I use a paper patch around base of bullet to keep it snug in the neck.
I use a cleaning rod with a jag that's filed smooth at the end. On the rod, I placed two nylon bushings. With the bolt closed, I run the rod to the bolt face and the two bushings to the muzzle end. I then put a bullet in the chamber and push it forward until it touches the lands. Holding the bullet in place, I run the cleaning rod until it touches the tip of the bullet and position the second bushing closest to the muzzle against the muzzle end. Measure the length from the beginning of one bushing to end of second one. The OAL from the bolt face to the lands is the measured length minus the total length of the two bushings.
I always used the modified case that Hornady sales and their OAL tool until I seen the video on how Eric Cortina's does it. He even says he lubes the bullet with sizing die wax to help keep the bullet from sticking and it works really good with bolt action rifles. I still use the Hornady modified case method when I'm working up a load on AR15s. Great video as always keepem coming guys!!!
Gavin I do two things. I use a fire formed case. Next I take out the firing pin and the extractor out of the bolt. Then I put the case and bolt in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed freely closed I will bump the shoulder of the case .0005 how ever many times it takes until the bolt falls closed. When that part is done the most free clearance you will have with the case is .00045. Then I start the same prosses over with the bullet. I will start with a measurement using the Hornaday gauge. Then I put the case and bullet in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed then I will seat the bullet by .002 to .003 at a time. You will know when your about perfect. The bolt will start to fall half way then 2/3. At this point I go to .0005 seating change. When the bolt falls closed you will never be more than .00045 off the lands for that bullet batch #. The only reason for doing this is to know that exact length the bullet ogive touches the lands. I've been shooting bench from 1968 to know. The truth of the matter is the way you showed it the video works the same as I've done. Now matter how you find the lands we all start seating bullets + or - from the measurement we both got from our method we used to find the node the gun shoots at. I will say one thing. I made a tool using a seating die plunge and a dial indicator and comp to check ogive to tip of bullet where the plunger sits. I then write this down and check any other bullet I choose. Using math any other bullet I use I will know where to seat the bullet to start making up a new load just off the lands. I love your work keep it up. I built my first rifle in 1978 22PPC. One other thing, the tool I made and the seating die I use for any give caliber I had reamers made to redo there inside where the bullet hit so they are exactly the same. Good luck Rick D.
Dear Richard, I think you may have the decimal point in the wrong place. Also it is not poss to measure that accurately with a calliper , 0.0005 i.e. Half a thousandth at real best. Regards
@@redhunterknives6675 My dies are able to bump a half thousandth at a time or .0005 my first bump on a fire formed brass is .0015. The point was find just off the lands. If your bolt does not fall closed by it self (no firing pin or extractor) after you know the shoulder of case is not at fault, then your bullet is still touching the lands. PS .0005 is a half thousandth. All my chambers In my bench guns are custom. I use Dave Manson reamers that I have ground to my specs. .0005 +.0005= .001 Shoot tight groups.
Thanks for the ongoing videos. Great stuff. I will say I have driven myself crazy trying to get consistent readings with the OAL gauge. (Especially true with VLD bullets.) TINY variances in pressure on the push rod change the distance to the lands a fair bit. It’s a hassle to remove the firing pin and ejector button (Wheeler method) or Barrel for the fingernail lift method (Mark Gordon method, explained in the Precision Rifle Blog), but I have found these methods very consistent.
When I was getting started I would lightly tap a fired case neck on the bench it would provide enough resistance to let the bullet slide into the lands but also allow it to come out. I would do it 3 times to ensure consistency.
You guys make a good team, very enjoyable and educational. Thank you for sharing the video and please keep up the good work !
I originally used the last method but got tired of having bullets stuck in the barrel and starting over.. then i used the hornady gauge method.. from now on i will start using the loctite method. I like the idea of having a hard copy of each specific bullet/chamber combo i reload for. Going to loctite it in then laser engrave the bullet/rifle combo on the case! Thanks gavin
I use the OAL method with their factory cases. My problem with that tool is you never get the same reading twice so I take 5 reading and take the average of the closes setting.
I'm going to try the Locktite method as that seems like it would be very accurate.
Would like to have seen you take multiple reading of each type to see if you get the same reading (or close) every time.
Same, I always take 5 readings with it as well, I find the first one or two are off and then the rest are pretty consistent, I usually blame myself tbh
same. No confidence in the OAL. Hopefully, this demo will make me more comfortable with the OAL.
I use the oal and get the same reading. My problem is when I seat my bullet with my die i keep getting different lengths I'm using match dies everything is tight and secure. Any thoughts?
@@jeremydunn5903 call the die manufacturer and ask how to properly use it. They should have a support line.
Get it from them rather than.. " um, ah " suggestions. This shit ain't funny when things go wrong.
@@jeremydunn5903 Also, if you have a seating die insert, make sure it's the correct one.
Love using the last method that Travis showed. Very simple and works great. Regardless of what method is used - CONSISTANCY is the most important factor - choose a method and stick with it.
Very Good Information. I love the third method (that I have always used) since it requires no special devices or tools and it is easy IF you are shooting different weights, lengths and ogive geometry, Use a once-fired case, tension the neck ONLY and let the lands seat the bullet. Important that you are careful that the land tension does not pull the bullet out of seating during the extraction of the test cartridge. Perform this a few times and look for consistency. I love watching your knowledge evolve Gavin; its evident form early the early vids to the latest. Shoot on!
Using the OAL gauge, you're pushing the bullet into the lands, whereas with the other methods, you're not. That is why you're seeing a difference. I've learned to use the gauge and NOT push so hard. Push until you meet resistance then release and then lock the push bar in place. I find that you will see the same kind of measurements as the locktite method.
Yes. Erik Cortina talks about the difference between finding the lands and what he calls the “jam method”.
That's why I want to find my O.A.L. with a fire formed case and resized with just enough neck tension to hold the projectile in place so I'm not jamming it into the lands, just touching. But at the same time I'm not putting to little neck tension so that when I hit it with calipers, it doesn't push the bullet inside the case. I do that 3 times and measure 3 times. If the measurements are the same or pretty close +/- .001 I know I'm good. If the measurements are off, then I know the neck tension is to tight because If the first measurement is 3.290" and the next is 3.330 that means the lands are grabbing the bullet....The bullet shape could be off that much BUT I doubt it.
You can also use some graphite dry lube on the part of the bullet that makes contact with the lands (Ogive) to help prevent the bullet from sticking in your bore.
@@semperfi6288 don’t know why but I like that idea better than case lube
Just starting to get into hand loading and it is easy to get lost in the weeds… This video is. very helpful. How do you approach initial cartridge length measurements for a new system? Imagine new rifle, brass, etc… for the initial firing of new brass, the recommended approach is to seat the bullets at the lands… I understand that it is critical to get a measurement from the bolt face to the lands which the gauge method cannot provide. The difference between the gauge measurement and the bolt methods implies extra headspace even on a fired case… it has been mentioned elsewhere that it can take more than a single firing for a case to fully expand to the chamber dimension and there should be some spring back expected as well. Keep up the great work!
Good video.
I have a few comments.
1. There was a bit of confusion - the pushing in with the gauge gave a LONGER reading than the Locktite or the sized case methods. This means the camming effect of the bolt pushed the bullet FURTHER into lands.
2. I have used the sized case method for decades - with a variation. I mark the bullet with a Sharpie marker pen (traditionally use a candle to apply soot). I seat the bullet long and note the comparator reading. I then chamber it with the bolt. When I remove the dummy round, sometimes the bullet can get stuck in the lands and needs to be tapped out. Now the rifling marks and the case mark are clear on the bullet as the Sharpie ink will be scratched. Now I can seat the bullet back to the sharpie case neck mark & measure on the comparator.
3. The scratch mark on the sharpie ink shows the taper effect of the rifling & when the bullet starts engaging with rifling. Normally about +/- 2 mm or 80 thou.
One issue with using the close the bolt method is that the seating depth might be increased by the pressure of the bolt. Furthermore, then when the bolt is retracted the bullet might ease out slightly from the case. It would seem the loktite method provides a good maintain of the bullet in the case. But I cringe at any red loktite in my chamber!
Loctite on a hard smooth surface in a non anaerobic isn’t going to adhere amazingly well. No issues getting it out with normal cleaning.
I used to use the hornady tool with modified cases, but swapped over to the wheeler method a couple years ago. Just seemed the most consistent.
Also amazing how many people I have seen with the hornday gauge backwards on the caliper. Not difficult to put the screw in the right side so the gauge is centered to the caliper blade.
This is what I do and I shoot short range benchrest and moving a bullet .003 into or out of the lands is critical!
I used to sharpie mark the ogive and look for land marks on the bullet. I've since been using the Hornady OAL gauge and I find the OAL gauge much easier and more accurate on my .223 and .308.
Very enlightening. Well done. One comment: (at 2:58 timestamp) It was stated that the ogive is being compressed. It. Is VERY difficult (darn near impossible) to compress metal. Metal is actually being moved (i.e., making burrs in the bullet) by contact with the rifling. This point may seem trivial to some, and is often misunderstood by laymen.
I am really new to precision reloading. Why do you want to "Chase The Lands" and is this why I see different OAL for different bullets for the same caliber? Really appreciate the video.
For 40 years I have held an unloaded case above a candle to get a good sooty effect. Close the bolt gently, extract, and see if you are touching the lands, and by how much. Seat bullet slightly deeper and repeat the process. When the bolt closes easily and there is only the lightest mark of the lands, you know you are good to go to calculate further seating depth. This may be too inaccurate for the most exacting bench-rest shooters, but it gives me one-hole groups from my .222 Rem. I also prefer to headspace using the bolt rather than the shoulder of the cartridge.
This was how I was originally taught as well - but now I just use a sharpie
I started this modest little reloading channel myself, for beginners to cover things I didn't understand and were difficult to find. I just started precision, magnum reloading for a 300 PRC and 6.5 PRC. I'm going to share this on my channel and I really appreciate you guys demonstrating the importance of OAL measuring and using such a visually descriptive method to show this. I'm learning more and more myself and I happen to be at this step, as the .300 PRC seems to be VERY finicky about Ammo. I'm realizing that using book load data was giving me 0.0945" of jump on the 212 grain ELD-X and 0.215" of jump on the 250 grain A-tips.
Wow! That’s a big difference in jump. Gets even bigger with erosion from shooting.
I learned to reload on the 6.5 prc and recently the 300 prc. the long jump is typical on magazine fed rounds. To get the bullets up to touchpoint, with the new longer bullets, they won't fit in the magazine. Fortunately there are some good nodes at long jumps. As the throat erodes you may have to adjust seating depth. The long bearing surfaces seem to keep these new long bullets lined up despite the long jump until engagement of the lands.
Cheap trick: Glue the bullet in the casing, load it before the glue has dried, wait for it to dry, pull out. Put it in bullet seating dye, adjust the dye until you feel resistance.
I imagine one could do the same with loctite, could they not? I mean, it’s basically good in and it’s not like you’ll be cranking on the seating die.
@@ronsorrentino6207 shure, you can try it!
Very impressed, my friend. An inspiration to me to strive to excel and to encourage others to do the same. May you have great success!
I've used the first two, but until now hadn't thought about the third method!
And I like that 3rd idea and will test it in my rifle.
By the way, I am not a competition shooter, I just like to be as good as I can while hunting.
Thank you so much for sharing 🙂
I think on the last method where you have a seated bullet long and then close the bolt on it you need to make sure that you don't have a lot of neck tension.
For cheap people like myself, you can buy steel wire the diameter of the primer hole and a lock collar the same diameter for a couple of bucks at a hardware store. No need to modify the case.
I prefer the loctite version because it incorporates the bolt into the solution. Seems to be the most accurate method in my mind. Thanks for the video. Very good info
Sorry late to using You tube
I was taught (1970) to use a, neck sized fire formed case, light seat of bullet, soot with candle (let cool). Then put five in one by one normal locking of the bolt (first locking lugs should be polished to give even pressure) then measure OAL of the five, and average them. Set the bullet seating depth accordingly. Depending on the quality of the rifle, one of the locking lugs will inevitably seat tighter so should be found and corrected before worrying about the lands effect on accuracy, as it will change the measured value.
I liked the idea of using the Locktite though.
Also...for those considering the Hornady gauge, if you send Hornady two fired unsized cases, they will modify your case and send it back to you for $15. I got mine back in about two weeks.
It's so easy to make your own.
Screw Hornady!
Where is the link for the ‘special’ case head tap he mentioned ?
@@ivymike3459 The tap is 5/16-36tpi - You can get them from McMaster-Carr and probably other places that sell machinist tooling. You will likely not find it at the local hardware store.
Not if you live outside of the USA. Service is only available to USA residents. If you live elsewhere you have to make your own.
I use a very similar process as the 3rd one he showed. The only difference is I take a very thin Emery cutting wheel and cut the neck to relieve some of the tension from the size case.
I use the same as you... It's very simple and easy to do. But I usually paint the bullet with a white board pen, just to see if the bullet was pushed out when you extract the case!
The third method seems the easiest and fastest to do. just load a case with a loose bullet in the chamber and close the bolt. The great thing I can see about this one is that I could quickly do it as I am setting up my press for a loading session for a whole batch of a particular bullet. Then when you change to a different bullet type, quickly do the same
This is such a great video
So well done. The cut away of the chamber is priceless. This is the only channel you can see this very special content. This video is a game changer
Hey guys, good video, however, Eric uses the bolt drop you mentioned to set 2 thou shoulder bump in a full length sizing die NOT to find jam
That's not the way I understood his video, I think he sizes his brass the same way he always does, with. 002 bump but sans powder and primer, that way its consistent.
How could the bolt bump the lands back at all?
And yes, sans is a word....lol.... look it up but you may already know, good luck in your shooting!
Excellent video Gavin and Travis. I use the Alex Wheeler method for bullet seating and the Erik Cortina method for finding head space and setting up my FL sizing dies.
Sinclair OAL gauge does not get enough love. Takes a bit of math to calc the base to ogive, but results are consistent and no need for a modified case. Great video though!
I use the seating die and a resized empty unprimed case. In increments bullet seating further out until it does not chamber and I get rifling/lands marks on the bullet or the opposite and seating further down until it does chamber and no marks are visible but this takes a number of new unmarked bullets. Then I back it off to my desired COL. As stated, bullet type makes a big difference and results are based on each bullet type. I don't get stuck bullets in the lands this way since the bullet is seated. I only do it to know my chamber size. I do not chase the lands like I used to. Some rifles do not like it close to the lands while others do so I shoot different COL loads until I find the "sweet" chamber spot or accuracy node and that sweet spot will change between types of bullets and over time throat erosion. I have a .223 chamber that absolutely hates bullets close to the lands for that short jump. It likes a long jump to hit its best accuracy. Same for a .22-250 chamber.
My Tika T3X Rem 223 shoots well enough seated at the end of the clip... that I just call it good. I'm just shooting paper for the fun of it anyways.
@@50Quid-d3x I have a Remington 700 BDL .222 or Triple 2 that likes it close to the lands with 55gr. Nosler ballistic tips. That load will shoot a five shot group through the same hole (without making the hole bigger) at 100 yards.
I like Eric cortinas method because it gives you a go no go feel for every other method it seemed to much of a difference in measurements
Awesome video. I wanted to save some money for projectiles and powder so I took a case and instead of a full resize I just gave it enough to hold on to the projectile. Not too tight, but not enough to pull out. Paint with a sharpie and push it in and lock it down. I ran it multiple times to verify the bullet wasn’t pulling back out as I have had that happen in early stages. But just like you guys said pick a method and stick with it because you can get varying numbers different ways.
Biggest thjng is making sure when you bring the dummy round back out, the rifling hasn’t pulled the bullet out. Sharpy helps you see that!
Without a wordy description, I use the method described in the Speer manual I got back in 1989 when my reloading journey began. I have only modified It slightly over the years but didn’t change the overall method it works for me.
I use the Hornady AOL gauge and light fingertip pressure. I'm not shooting benchers, but I do like to work on improving precision in my hunting rifles. Did I miss where you told us what drill and tap to use to make our own modified cases?
I use the bolt to seat the bullet into the lands.
Reason, when i started loading now over 70 years ago, things like comparators didnt exist.
But matches for blackening the bullet did.
I use a partially sized case, I only size about 1/16 - 1/8 inch of the case mouth. This way the bullet slides into case a bit easier so the bullet is less apt to stick into the rifling.
My cast bullet loads take a bit more care on the neck tension. I'll repeat this check several times to average out the measurement, then set a bullet a bit long then using a sharpie on the bullet and progressively seat deeper till I find a length to just mark the place that the bullet fully seals to the throat.
Morning fellas. Have to say this video is a great explanation of the subject matter. Thanks for the hard work, really well done.
Been using the OAL gauges and have always done it the exact same way every time so I'm hopefully consistent there. However a bullet specific dummy set up to the lands would be a time saver and is clearly accurate as shown. Might have to dig out the red loktite
I’ll be using the Loctite retaining compound or the 290 adhesive. If you use the 290, BEWARE! It’s a wicking adhesive, use a very small amount smeared IN the case. If it leaks out it’ll glue the case and bullet in place. Once you get them out, there will be a hardened film adhered in your chamber.
I also use the 3ed method, but I very lightly tighten up the very end of the neck with my die set so the bullet won't stick in the barrel, I also use a black marker to see the rifling. 👍
Gavin, I use the Hornady gauge, but I do a simple correction using the Hornady case headspace gauges), I measure the headspace dimension of the Hornady drilled & tapped gauge case vs. one of my fire-formed case from my rifle.
I apply that headspace correction to the base-to-ogive dimension I measure with the Hornady COAL gauge, which gives me the base-to-ogive length for MY brass. Sure, I could drill & tap my good brass, but simply applying the delta of the headspace length between Hornady's inexpensive gauge case and my fired/resized cases lets me keep my brass for shooting. The Hornady gauge cases cost about the same as a cup of coffee, so not having to set up my lathe for drilling and tapping (using a Wilson case length gauge as a chuck) is worth it!
I have a sacrificial case for each caliber which I cut petals into the neck. I can easily tension a bullet enough so it will just contact the lands but be held enough to keep it in when extracted.
I use the Hornady gage but I don’t push it in. Buy hand I gently turn the barrel down so it’s straight down then let the rod down easy that way gravity is the only push
You should went on and showed us how to take those measurements and adjusted the seating die.
Excellent and as a new Loader I have watch several videos and never really obtained a total grasp till this one. Thanks Guys…
The Sinclair tool is great also, I use that because you don’t need the custom cases like the Hornady.
Thanks for the video! Getting the same results w/ loctite & jamming the bullet into the case does not make sense to me. Personally I will continue to use the OAL gauge and experiment with a force gauge to push on the rod.
Super clear video, thanks fellas. I've been using the hornady OAL gauge, because I have one. I'll definitly be trying the other methods for comparison
I've been using the Cortina method for a while then got told to use an AOL gauge so bought one and found it to inconsistent so went back to the Cortina method as it was just way more consistent.
Deprimed case, superglue works very well and no fear of it changing over time. I use the Hornady OAL guage with the ogive set. I can change bullets and have them with the same jump.
You should do a video regarding jamming vs jumping the lands and it’s respect to accuracy repeatability and functionality.
For the last 30 years I’ve used an empty case and superglue instead of Loctite
A couple of decades ago when I was REALLY into making the best ammo I could, I used Sinclair’s comparator. It’s similar in that it uses the bullet in the chamber, take a measurement. Runs fired case in and take a measurement then subtract the part of the bullet that will be in the neck and measure the over all length. I would prefer to measure off of the olive but their option was full length, bullet seated. I really like that Loctite method for the shooting I do now. Thanks, Jeff
Sinclair’s does sell a comparator that measures off the ogive. Sorry. The auto correct got me on the ogive in the first message. Olive? Really?
First thought, do yourself a favor and use the Accuracy One seating depth comparator. It measures between the case shoulder and bullet ogive. So much more precise and quicker than the CBTO method/tool. Saves you on the math too.
Hornady OAL is great and is best if you use a fired case with the shoulder bumped .001" so it's sure to chamber smoothly and headspace off of the shoulder. If you don't size (ever so slightly) the body of the case could stop the shell from fully reaching the shoulder and thus giving false readings.
You can use the Hornady virgin case for this but there will be some math and corrections needed to get accurate numbers. Case base to shoulder lengths on a fired case need to be noted so that corrections can be made to the base to shoulder length of the virgin case. This "difference" needs to either be added to or subtracted from the CBTO measurement you get to the lands with the virgin case. Again, works fine but there's math you have to be aware of. Throw a virgin, belted magnum case gauge in the mix and it will not get true readings, you can't. That's why it's best to use a fired, slightly sized case with this method.
Here's the method I use now and have found to be the most precise and consistent:
Use a fired, very slightly sized case and polish the outside with steel wool. I don't want it sticky in the chamber at all. Seat a bullet a little longer than it needs and lightly push the case into the chamber by finger. It should "stick" because the bullet is in the lands. You'll need a cleaning rod to push it back out. Now, seat your bullet in the die shorter until it will not stick anymore. You want to find the spot where it is not sticking but .001" longer will. When you go to push the cartridge out with the rod, it will come with no resistance. This is a true measurement of no jump nor jam. I can feel a difference in .0005" difference in seating on the cleaning rod when you get to the right spot.
I use the OAL gage for all my reloading- it is what I learned so I bought my own gage and cases and use it to establish starting points for my various rifles.
EXCELLENT VIDEO GUYS!!!
Question - When using a fired casing, you resized the cartridge, neck, etc. Correct?
I’ve always used the 3rd method. I just lightly size the neck and use sharpie marker on the bullet to show lands imprint. Works great and real simple.
Great video! Awesome visual!
last method is fastest to a result in the .001range of other methods, easy choice due to johny's reloading bench who is slightly different though conceptually close. One of the earliest things I learned was seating depth is a variation with manipulatable & testable features so start somewhere with a goal in mind and test away.
Erics method with bolt drop is to the touch. You are teaching people about the JAM. There is a difference.
i have used the last method for years but i use a sinclair hex nut style comparator to measure from the ogive. Works very well. I repeat the process about 10-15 times to make sure i get an accurate reading. Has produced a many a good load both for hunting and long range taget.
The cut away barrel was a excellent teaching aid ,everything changes for a change in Bullet manufactures even given the same bullet weight ,Berger verses Sierra or Hornady I wish you would have mentioned that
The loctite method works like a damn charm. Feel like I owe you money for that tip. I bought an old hall action benchrest rifle chambered in 6ppc .262 neck. However there was zero info on the chamber, gunsmith, and so on and zero items included with the rifle at auction. Barrel was new never fired action/ bolt also never fired so a deal I couldn’t turn down but trying to load for something like that with no info on chamber/seating specs kinda intimidating. That barrel my have been put on the action 30 plus years ago for all I know But having the exact depth for touching the lands helps a lot. Thanks!!
Minimizing jump/finding the lands is one of the more persistent myths (IMO). I was a full on adherent until reading an article back in 2016 that indicated that not all bullets, particularly the newer VLD/ELD designs, responded well to that approach and actually gave better results with more jump. Having acquired a megnetospeed to fine tune my 6.5/RPR loads (never really trusted my Chrony), I set up a test with my, to that point, most accurate load.
The change I made was to set the COAL at the 'book' value in the loading manual using Hornady's ELD-M bullet. I then setup of 5 shot loads of incremental COAL increase/Decrease from that point of .001 changes until the COAL maxed out "at the Lands" limit I had previously established with a dummy round.
What I found was that the RPR/ELD-M had a very specific 'range' that gave best SD/ES and accuracy and it was NOT anywhere close to the lands. It was a range of approx .003" around the book COAL which was astonishing to me have 'grown' up reloading for over 35 years at that point, believing that best accuracy was ALWAYS found seating the bullet out close to the lands.
This did not change when my barrel went past its 'speed bump' that most go through around 300 rounds or so. Like any load customization, what your particular rifle likes is going to be very individual, so really anyone's 'best load' is pretty much an ancedotal one off for that rifle/component combination. But before anyone goes all in on the "get as close to the lands as you can" paradigm, test your rifle with a good chronogrpah like the Magnetospeed or Labradar and spend some time testing various COAL setups. You might be surprised by what you find.
IMO - YMMV
I was shown to use the OAL gauge and the rod down the barrel together, so you push the case into the chamber, then using both rods "feel" for the lands with as little force as possible. When you have it lock the OAL and remove. Do this 3 times and compare results.
Seems to work fine.
Same method I have used for many decades!! Works flawlessly!! Good comment. 👍👍
You should do a headspace measurement on a fired or resized case and compare it to the modified unfired case. Add the difference for a precise measurement.
I did the Hornady gauge and the black sharpie method and then split the difference for my 28 Nosler.I figured .006 off for the Berger VLDs I'm shooting and I have no problem shooting at any target.Once I got my Kilo 2400 set up I'm shooting out to 1500 no problem.Gone as far as 1870 and made hits.
We have tried the bolt insert method...but it didn't work without some resistance to hold bullet into case. We used a lee collet die to introduce some case to bullet interference but still all bullet movement when bolt is closed...is that okay? You didn't cover why you remove firing pin from bolt even though you mentioned you would...please do so....
Also marking the bullet with black marker....
The land marks on the bullet are very difficult to distinguish. Question: if the bullet is jammed into land wouldn't that give an incorrect reading of .00015 or more when using the marker routine? 21:26
I also used the last method with a sharpie as well as the OAL gauge. I found over the years that the sharpie method is just a good and it is easier.
I take a fired case and neck size only. I then use a dremel with a cut off wheel and cut two slots from the case mouth to the shoulder in a straight line with the cartridge and 180 degees from each other. Then deburr the slots. This allows the bullet to be pushed in when chambering. The bullet touches the lands and the tension holds the bullet enough to remove cartridge and check seating depth. Works well and can be used with any bullet over and over again
Thank you for the AWESOME VIDEO! so much information and love the cutout model! Makes things very clear with a visual example to see.
I have been using the Sinclair COL guage now for 7 years and it gives an exact measurement every time and does not require modified cases or anything like that. I have found it to be the way to go. I am a 1000yd benchrest competition shooter and its my way for both my 6bra light gun and 7saum unlimited gun
I've never checked... I have only ever used the manual data... I'm gonna give it a try for sure!!! Hopefully I'll get better rounds quickly.. using my saved data over the course of a long trial and error period and checking the lands this way(method 3 most likely) I'll get everything tuned in...
I haven't used the lock-tite method but that one seems to be very useful in that you could do so for multiple bullets and also keep them for future reference. Like a comparison as the rifel ages and wears.
Can you measure a new unfired round to use as a template or standard measure like doing the lock tite
Great vid guys, you saved me $80.
Appreciated from Canada 🇨🇦.
So do you trim the casing before you do any of these steps? Also how do you check if a casing needs trimming from the get go? Sorry I’m new to reloading and have no idea. Trying to learn from all these RUclips videos.
TIP: for the Hornady bullet comparator; I just measured 3 different 223 bullets of different weights and manufacturers and found a total of CBTO variance of some .030. All bullets must have identical O'Gives.
Then I removed the plastic plunger and filed down the rounded end into a more pointed end and remeasured a 3 bullets again @ 8 each and found the new total variance of the same bullets to be .010. In two of the bullets the CBTO variance was less than 5%. Very accurate now.
My conclusion is the bullet bases are not 100% perpendicular to the concentricity of the bullet and the plastic plunger end is too large to get an accurate reading on a small point from the base of the bullets.
This was all done in a brand-new JC Custom barrel just purchased and not installed.
I wish Hornady would install a smaller metal pointed end on their plunger for a little extra money.
Cracking video lads.
The risk with using the bolt to 'press' the bullet into the lands is that when you lift/retract the bolt you may pull the bullet back out of the case a little (if it is snug in the lands) this would gove a false reading and you would never know it had happened.
If you colour the 'whole' of the bullet with a sharpie pen, "then' carry out the bolt press method, not only will you get lands markings, but you will also see any bullet extraction that may occur as there would be a clean ring just above the neck where the bullet had been dragged back out of the case a little.
Also, as somebody mentions below, a tiny smear of case lube on the ogive may be a good idea.
Now that was an AWESOME Video ... I just learned a couple more tricks. Thanks Gavin 👍👊
Excellent video.. I was just thinking today on the relationship between the case,bullet and the reamer used..
I knew there had to be some degree of measurement to cut the chamber to get the cartridge to a more precise depth. This changes my perception of ordering a new custom barrel..
Being a Design/Engineer I’m wondering if the bullet,case,reamer can be entered in CAD to find the best potential clearance’s for the setup prior to the cut.. would love to give that a try.